190: Shrinking the Integrity Gap with Jeff & Terra Mattson

Real Talk with Rachael Podcast

This week on Real Talk with Rachael, I'm chatting with my friends, Jeff and Terra Mattson. Jeff and Terra are authors of Shrinking the Integrity Gap: Between What Leaders Preach and Live, hosts of the Living Wholehearted Podcast, executive coaches, social entrepreneurs, and proud parents to two girls. Together, they co-founded the counseling and organizational development firm Living Wholehearted and a grassroots movement, Courageous Girls, that helps moms walk with their daughters in every stage of their growing years.

Jeff is also an organizational development specialist, while Terra is a licensed marriage & family therapist and keynote speaker. Whether through their podcast or their professional work, the Mattsons are committed to equipping individuals, families, and organizations to thrive.

Key Points from Our Conversation:

• Integrity isn’t about achieving perfection; it’s an ongoing, daily commitment to align actions with values. Growth in integrity means recognizing where you fall short and working toward closing that gap.
• Leadership isn’t only for executives or public figures. If someone looks up to you—be it a sibling, friend, or colleague—you have a sphere of influence. Embrace the responsibility and impact that comes with it.
• Leaders, especially those in high-impact roles, often face challenges in aligning their personal lives with their public personas. Acknowledging this gap is the first step to growth and maturity in leadership. Recognizing when you need help and being quick to seek it doesn’t make you weak; it’s a sign of maturity. Healthy leaders get support to avoid larger issues and continue growing.
• Integrity doesn’t mean being flawless. Instead, it involves honestly owning your mistakes, making corrections, and allowing grace for yourself and others. Accepting the inevitability of imperfections allows you to lead authentically.
• Trauma is often misjudged as only extreme events, but even smaller disruptions, like frequent moves or emotional challenges in childhood, can leave lasting effects. Leaders should reflect on these potential impacts, as unresolved trauma can influence their leadership style and decision-making.
• Saying "no" can be difficult, especially for leaders used to shouldering responsibilities. However, stepping back not only benefits personal health but also empowers others to grow and contribute. Boundaries allow leaders to focus on areas where they can have the greatest impact.
• Many leaders carry hidden shame from past experiences or unmet expectations, which can affect how they interact with their team. Recognizing and addressing these feelings—especially those rooted in early life or trauma—can lead to a more authentic and effective leadership style.
• It’s crucial to build a sense of self that isn't tied to work or accolades. Leaders who understand their worth apart from external success are often more resilient and fulfilled, fostering a healthier work environment for all.
• Neuroscience shows that old neural pathways can be replaced through intentional practices and experiences. Repetition and small, steady changes are essential for rewiring the brain toward healthier beliefs.
• Feeling guilt for specific behaviors can be healthy, as it indicates moral awareness. However, ongoing shame (e.g., "I am bad") must be addressed, as it can hinder personal growth and relationships.
• Leaders need trusted spaces outside their professional environments to share struggles. Coaches, counselors, or a few close friends outside work systems can offer safety and objectivity. Confidentiality and reciprocity are crucial for these relationships. Healthy leadership involves welcoming correction and feedback, even when it feels uncomfortable.
• Leaders often struggle with being vulnerable because they are accustomed to being in control. It’s essential to develop the humility to ask for help and allow others to see and speak into their challenges.
• Leaders should prioritize character over charisma to avoid the pitfalls of seeking power or using others to meet personal needs. Systems that prioritize appearances without true accountability often result in harmful consequences.
• Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) involves grandiosity, entitlement, lack of empathy, and an image-focused mentality. Research shows narcissism can thrive in church systems because of the platforming of leaders and the absence of accountability structures. Churches need to resist “hero worship” of leaders and remember that Jesus is the only true hero.

Let’s Get Real Practical:

• Ask the Lord about the blind spots you're missing
• Ask a trust person if they see any blind spots and listen to their feedback
• Take the Core Value Index Test
• Share the episode with a leader

Resources:

Wholehearted Leadership Cohorts Let Us Prey: The Plague of Narcissist Pastors and What We Can Do About It You can find a list of Christian counselors at The American Association of Christian Counselors or through Focus on the Family’s Christian Counselor Network.

Connect with Jeff & Terra: website | Instagram | Facebook | podcast Connect with Rachael: website | Instagram | Facebook