EP 287 How Mindfulness Can Serve You on Your Fertility Journey | Josephine Atluri

The Wholesome Fertility Podcast

Josephine Atluri is an author, certified life coach and an expert in meditation and mindfulness. A graduate of the University of Chicago, Josephine followed her passion for total wellness and has helped thousands of people overcome adversity to find joy. She supports and empowers organizations and individuals through her wellness retreats, classes and written work. Plus, her experience creating her modern day family of seven children via In Vitro fertilization, international adoption and surrogacy inspires her work as a highly sought-after fertility, pregnancy, and parenting mindfulness coach. Josephine hosts a popular podcast, “Responding to Life: Talking Health, Fertility, & Parenthood,” where she interviews guests on their inspiring responses to life’s challenges. Her parenting mindfulness expertise and fertility advocacy work has been featured in the Huffington Post, Motherly, MindBodyGreen, The Bump, Prevention, Well+Good, and Woman’s Day. Josephine is the author of the books, “Mindfulness Journal for Parents” and “5 Minute Mindfulness for Pregnancy.” She also sits on the board of the nonprofit, Shero’s Rise, an organization dedicated to uplifting girls in underserved communities. Website & Social media links (Facebook, instagram, twitter) Website: www.jatluri.com Instagram: @josephineratluri @respondingtolifepodcast Url: https://www.instagram.com/josephineratluri/ YouTube Channel: https://bit.ly/3kIxDHQ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/josephine-atluri-0aaa32129 Information on Josephine’s retreat can be found here: https://www.jatluri.com/retreat-1 use coupon code LOTUS to get a discount! SummaryJosephine shares her background in fertility mindfulness and meditation and how she got into the work. She discusses her own infertility journey, including failed IVF cycles, the loss of twins, and the decision to pursue international adoption and surrogacy. Josephine explains the concept of mindfulness as awareness coupled with curiosity and compassion. She emphasizes the importance of being present and using breathing techniques as a tool for reducing stress and finding calm. Josephine also talks about her books on mindfulness during pregnancy and parenthood and her retreats for women. Takeaways

• Fertility mindfulness and meditation can provide coping strategies and overall wellness care for individuals trying to build their families.
• Mindfulness is a lifestyle that involves being aware of oneself and the world, and it can lead to reduced stress, better sleep, improved immunity, and better relationships.
• Breathing techniques are a powerful tool for moving from a state of stress to a state of calm, and they can be practiced anywhere and anytime.
• Mindfulness can help individuals navigate the challenges and anxieties of pregnancy and parenthood, and it can be incorporated into daily life through various modalities.
• Being present and practicing mindfulness can lead to mental clarity, emotional freedom, and a deeper connection with oneself and the present moment.

For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com Click here to find out how to get the first chapter of "The Way of Fertility" for free. The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Transcript: Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Josephine. Jo (00:02) Thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be speaking with you today. Michelle (00:06) Me too, so I'd love for you to start out with giving us your background and how you got into the work that you're doing. Jo (00:13) Yeah, so I am specializing in fertility mindfulness and meditation, and I was working in healthcare upon returning back to work many years ago. And I brought my consulting background with my healthcare background and went into meditation, but I was using it for more corporate wellness. And then I realized that, when I was going through my own infertility journey that I could have really used these tools. And that's when I decided to pivot and really focus on providing mindfulness and overall wellness care for people who are trying to build their modern day families. I remember very well just feeling really stressed out and not having coping strategies. And so that's my... biggest aim with the fertility mindfulness work that I do. Michelle (01:15) And then if you don't mind actually sharing your own journey Jo (01:19) Yeah, no, absolutely. It's actually started, it's like the 20th anniversary of when we first did our IVF cycle, feels like forever ago, which it is. And we knew we had to go straight into that because of healthcare issues, I mean health issues. And we went into it pretty naively because we were in our 20s and I thought that because... of our age that it would happen pretty quickly. And it didn't. We went through a few infertility clinics and it didn't work out. Many failed cycles. We did end up getting pregnant with twins only to lose them at 17 weeks. And that's when we decided to pivot into international adoption. We always had that in our back pocket as another path to parenthood for us. Michelle (02:10) Sorry. Jo (02:18) given our history and so we pivoted there and then we were able to adopt our first son who's now 17. We adopted him from Kazakhstan and that was quite an experience. Then once he was home we decided to give IVF one more try. We switched to a third clinic and we became pregnant again. They threw the kitchen sink at me as the medical term is sometimes used. and I was able to deliver the twin successfully. And through that cycle, we actually were able to freeze a number of embryos and they weren't doing any of the many tests that they are doing these days back then. And so we kept them on ice because of the sort of the traumatic experience from the loss and then having to be on bed rest and all of this. I didn't. think that I could carry again. And so we decided to just sort of keep the embryos on ice until we could figure out what to do. And it wasn't until many years later that we decided to pursue the option of surrogacy. It wasn't an option for us to begin with because of the prohibitive costs. And so we worked with an amazing surrogate and she delivered our second set of twins. Michelle (03:34) Mm -hmm. Jo (03:47) boys, our first ones are boy -girl, and then we had a couple more embryos left and many years later we decided to give them one last chance or go through this process one more time and worked with a different surrogate who was also as equally as amazing and then we had our girl twins, so we have one of each kind. Michelle (04:13) Oh, wow. Jo (04:13) And that's how we created what I call our modern day family of seven kids through adoption, surrogacy, and IVF. Mom's story. Michelle (04:21) Wow, that's such a story. And that's why I wanted to go over it because what's interesting is that it has so many different ways to parenthood in one. You know, there's so many different ways to do it. And a lot of times people are afraid of choosing certain ways. But then ultimately, I always find out when talking to people that they don't regard a thing, everything happened for a reason and that connected with them to their child and however way that came about. Jo (04:30) Yes. Michelle (04:49) So I love hearing stories like that just because I mean, it's amazing, like just human life and the way your path leads you that you don't initially expect it to lead you and then you up having blessings coming in the way that they want to come. Jo (05:07) Exactly. Yes, it's definitely not what we expected, but I totally believe in how things are supposed to just happen that way. It's not to say that it was not a very tough journey and a lot of lessons learned. And I do make a lot of comparisons in articles and things like that about the difference between IBF and adoption and surrogacy. There certainly is a lot of overlap. in many levels to it, but yeah, definitely was a learning experience. And in all of those different paths to parenthood, definitely could have used fertility mindfulness in all of it. Michelle (05:48) Yes. Yeah. So, I'm totally with you because I think what happens is a lot of times when people are going through this or couples are going through this, they're just, they're figuring it out. They're trying to map out and like figure out how to navigate it. So I think that just by itself could be so overwhelming. And then they're looking at the diet, they're looking at the supplements, they're looking at like what kind of other treatments they can do or fertility clinics. And so all the sort of check boxes, but... So often the one thing that is so pivotal and that is often missed is the mindset, like in how people feel and cope with it, because ultimately it's not even about, I mean, a lot of times people will look at the mindset in order to have that as an avenue to help boost fertility. However, all of that aside, it's just so important to take care of yourself at a time that. of so much confusion and so many different thoughts, opinions, and it could be so overwhelming. And that's the time that mindfulness I know as a meditator myself, like just the impact of what it can do to your mind and how it shifted and changed me. And I know that when I speak to other people who meditate, that it can really, it just changes your life in so many ways. It consolidates you. It makes the, it's almost like the static. die down so that you're much more sharp and you're in tune with yourself and your own inner intelligence and it connects you. So I really think that there's so much power in that. And then also, I think often people think of mindfulness as just meditation. However, I'm sure as you know, like, is amazing, but it also teaches you to be mindful in your life actively, like in real time. So I'd love for you to. talk about mindfulness, what it is and how you can really implement it in your life and why a person hearing this should really consider doing that. Jo (07:53) Yeah, no, I mean, I agree totally with everything that you were mentioning. And the way I like to describe mindfulness in just a very simple way is to bring it down to awareness. So it is awareness coupled with a gentle curiosity and compassion to oneself in the process. And so awareness can be anything from being in tune with what's happening to you. mentally, emotionally, physically, the world around you, as well as your interactions with other people. So like you said, you know, it can trickle out into all parts of your life. And in fact, when I describe mindfulness, I call it a lifestyle, not just a one -off thing that you try to squeeze into your day via a meditation for like five minutes or something. If you're able to tune into this awareness of yourself and the world around you, then it can really impact all the different buckets of your life and lead to things like reduced stress and better sleep, improved immunity, and better relationships with your partner, your kids, your coworkers, different things like that, because you're really tuning in. to how you're feeling and when you're able to do that, you're able to respond to life versus being reactionary, which so many of us do. And so that, when you think about all of those benefits, it can really impact your fertility as well, your whole fertility journey as well, as well as way beyond once you... are able to move past that and go into different facets of your life. And so one of the biggest tools that I like to bring mention to people is breathing techniques. And like you mentioned, a lot of times a misconception is that meditation is equivalent to mindfulness and that's it. But there are so many different modalities of mindfulness that can cater to many different types of needs and abilities. and you're not just tied to meditation. I know a lot of people as they're starting out get really discouraged because they think, well, I can't sit for more than two minutes without having thoughts in my mind. And that's another whole misconception is because you're not supposed to really complete your mind, rid your mind of thoughts. It's really just the interaction of those thoughts. But going back to this idea of different modalities of mindfulness, you can do... Michelle (10:28) Yeah. Jo (10:42) different things like journaling, affirmations, you can do walking meditations, eyes open meditations, and the one that I brought up were breathing techniques. And the reason that I love, I bring this up when it comes to fertility meditations is because you can bring it with you on the go. So, you know, whenever you're at the nurse's clinic, getting your blood drawn, or if you're getting a scan, or if you're waiting for your doctor to speak about your next round, different things like that. your breath is always with you and that's why it's a super powerful tool. And it's also powerful because it can move you from a state of stress, a state of fight or flight, into your parasympathetic nervous system, which is your rest and digest and brings you back to this baseline of calm. And all you really have to do is just start to notice your breath and... make it more intentional by slowing it down. You can count, you can do, you can manipulate your breath in so many different ways. But if you're able to just slow it down and make it more intentional, then you're bringing yourself back into this state of calm. And it's super helpful when you're getting really worked up in any of these infertility appointments that can cause your stress, your cortisol levels to just skyrocket, right? So that's why that's my number one go to. in general, but especially for people who are in the midst of their fertility journey because it's something you can pull out whenever you need. Michelle (12:14) Yeah, and I love that you mentioned that because a lot of my patients will say sometimes they'll go to the doctor's office and they really do have like a legitimate anxiety and they feel it in their body. And it brings them to a state of such anxiety that they go blank. They forget what they wanted to ask, which I always say, just write down the questions beforehand if you can, but they'll go blank on, and sometimes even if... they're not fully on board with what the doctor says. They'll just, they, you know, they won't be able to respond with clarity. When you do get into the breath, it really helps that mental clarity, which I feel like, especially when you're on the fertility journey, you need it more than ever. Jo (12:57) Yes, no, absolutely. That's a great point about, um, about having clarity and asking questions because I can raise my hand to having that experience. I'll have all of these questions, all of these thoughts running through my head and then I'll meet with the doctor or the nurse and they'll say something. And then all of a sudden my mind's in a tangent and I'm not present. And I think about all of the things that maybe that I claim that I did wrong because a lot of us. you know, blame ourselves during this journey at one point or another, or I start to project into the future thinking about like, okay, now here's my calendar, right? We're all tied to this calendar. I'm going to have to do this, this X, Y, Z. And you're just, you're not even there. And you walk out of that appointment, not having answered your questions and not having clarity about your next steps because you just weren't present. And that's the other thing about mindfulness is that when you're aware, when you're in tune with, yourself and your surroundings, that brings you into the present moment. Because you're not thinking about how you were feeling before. You're thinking, okay, I'm tuning in right now. How's my body feeling? How am I feeling emotionally? What kind of mental space am I in? How am I interacting with this person? And that's all in the present moment. And when you take that pause to be able to just take stock of yourself and your situation, you really can have that moment of clarity. But if you're going backwards, you're going forward, you don't have that clarity. You're just everywhere else but the present moment. And so that's another huge benefit of practicing mindfulness, is that you're able to really tune in and be present. And just a side note to this is that you can practice it in meditations, you can practice it in journaling. And the more that you're able to practice even just tiny little moments throughout the day and over time, it's just more about consistency. The better able you're, you can pull towards that like present moment awareness during moments like this with the doctor or the nurse because you've practiced it and you've created that neural pathway in your brain to be able to, to pull into the present moment, right? Because your brain's a muscle and your, your, just like you're exercising it. You're exercising it to be in the moment. So that's the beauty of consistency. It's more about trying to work that muscle every day, work that ability to be present and mindful and aware versus having to like work it out for an hour. If you could do it for a couple minutes a day, it's totally to your benefit in all aspects of your life. Michelle (15:46) And also I'll mention this is being present allows you for mental breaks from everything too, because when you're thinking about the future, you're thinking about the past, you're not being present. And when your mind is constantly on something that is worrisome to you, then again, you're not being in the present moment. When you can train yourself to be in that present moment, you actually allow yourself to come up for air and you're able to just lose yourself in the moment when you're. having a moment of going out or doing something that you could take a break from everything mentally, that's gonna give you more energy when you come back to all of the different challenges that you're facing. And I think that that is so important. It's kind of like filling your tank. it is this level of emotional freedom that does happen. simultaneously when you are present. And I think about a lot of what the ancients always used to refer to as liberation of the self. And liberation of the self is really just like, we are so caught up in identifications, thoughts. This is just the human condition. So this isn't something to be like, we all have this, you know, it's just part of our human condition is that we can get very caught up in our mind movies. And our projections, our fears, most of the fears that we have actually don't really come into fruition. And we have a negative bias, which is really there to protect us from like anything dangerous. And so our mind does tend to go there. And this helps. And they've talked about it throughout history, you know, through centuries, all these ancient teachings about liberation of the self. And liberation of the self simply means is just being able to like fully immersed, be immersed in the present moment, which is the only real moment. It's the only moment that has life force because everything else is an illusion. It's not truly happening in the now and isn't fully alive in this present moment. and I also look at awareness and I think to myself, awareness by itself, this is, uh, I think science needs to catch up to it. And I think that in some ways it, It does. If you think about Qigong or even yoga where you were like really present with your body, there's life force that is inherent in awareness itself. So when you start to focus on areas of your body that feel stuck, you can actually open it. I felt it literally opening in my body as I brought awareness. So it almost like areas that feel stuck are kind of like devoid of consciousness. in our body and ourselves and awareness opens that up because it just awakens you to this aliveness that can only happen in the now. That's the biggest condition about it. Jo (18:39) Yeah, no, absolutely. Great points. Michelle (18:42) definitely fascinating. So talk about like, if somebody is really not familiar with this and really new, and is also like how I used to be, I used to work in the city in New York City, and it was very much in the corporate world. And this is like before I got into meditation. And you almost get so stuck in like the project, the demand, whatever you need to do. you know, I don't really believe in a type A personality. I know that people talk about that a lot. I think that you can wear it, but you could choose to wear whatever you want. You could choose to like, go into the frequency of type B or whatever it is that you want to be. And we get to decide it's the identifications, but. I was at the time identified with a very type A personality. And now I would say, I wouldn't even say B, like I'm more free because of the mindfulness. So for somebody who is not familiar with how to get themselves into that parasympathetic, and they're so used to being in the frequency of do, do, do, and like, let's get things done. Let's run after it, you know, that kind of thing. What's an easy way to... get back in tune with yourself and ease yourself into the present moment. Jo (20:02) Yeah, no, that is a great question. I think that is a function of society, whether you identify with a type A or not. It's just that we're driven to produce and to be busy, and that's a marker of success, especially in the United States. So to try to pivot into this other type of living, this other type of thinking and doing, It has to just be a little bit, it won't be as intuitive, right? So you kind of just have to set yourself up and your environment for success. So it's not really a matter of habits. A lot of research has shown it's more how you set up your environment that will be a indicator of success for yourself. So what I mean by that is, let's say you decide to want to try the meditation. So then you would figure out when in your day is really realistic. And this is kind of the process that I go through with clients. So we do like this mindfulness audit, I call it. And so you'd simply say, okay, well, I'm a morning person or I'm a night person. And I'm not going to try and get you to do something in the morning when you're really not typically productive then. It just doesn't make sense. It's rather than trying to fight what your existing systems are, we're trying to work with it. So if you're a night person, then we would figure out, all right, well then how about we tie it to something, this act of mindfulness that you'll start to practice with something you already consistently do so that way you're stacking it onto a habit that has proven to be very successful for you that you just already do. So for example, that would be, I always bring up the example of brushing your teeth. So if you're already doing that at night, than now just pairing it with the mindfulness activity. So you can choose journaling, doing a gratitude list or practice, doing a mindful stretch like yoga for a few minutes, you can meditate. I mean, as I mentioned, so many different modalities. You just pick one and try it out for maybe try it out for a week and see how it works for you and then try a different one. But the consistency here is that you're doing it always. before or after you brush your teeth for X amount of minutes. And it's more about the practice of doing it. And so being aware in the moment and trying to be very gentle and compassionate to yourself about the experience. So not walking in with these expectations of you need to accomplish X, Y, Z in order for it to be a success. Because if you do that, then you kind of set yourself up for failure because you may or may not meet. those goals and then you get down on yourself and it becomes this negative cycle. Just sort of walking in without any expectations aside from the fact that you're going to be able to, that you will set aside the time, the X minutes to do it and then it's done and that's it. So whatever happens during that, during those minutes is just left for you to really experience in the present moment. That's a huge piece of mindfulness is just having that gentle compassion and that curiosity of like, well, what are the possibilities? Like what can actually happen? I don't know. And we'll see, right? Every day is different. We wake up different every day. I mean, every moment or hour, we have a new experience for ourselves and a new sort of frame of mind that we're operating from. So that's how I, in a nutshell, kind of work with someone or suggest in my articles and books. how they can get started if this isn't something they've ever dabbled in before and it can feel really overwhelming to start a new habit like this, especially if it doesn't feel, if it feels like the opposite of how you normally operate in life. And then I just like to infuse little mantras for myself or just little reminders. And so for this, especially for a type A personality, I would say, I am focused on... being versus doing. And so I don't need to accomplish like a ton of things during this moment. I just need to be here. And so I like little reminders like that, but you know, whatever works for you, especially as you're going through this, you might be aware of things that can give you success. So I would always try and infuse that as well into this new practice. Michelle (24:40) And I love that you said in this moment, because I think that when you give yourself permission, even if it feels very strange for you to be in a different state of mind, if you just tell yourself for this moment, I'm going to give myself permission be present just for this moment, then it doesn't feel as overwhelming. And it doesn't feel like you have to change everything in your life. It's just for this moment to give yourself that mental break. And then your mind eases into that state. And then possibly that state of more ease can start to come into different parts of your life. But I think that is such a good point. You know, just giving yourself that permission and those affirmations or those words can make such a difference. And it sounds so simplistic. And I find that the simplistic things are the most powerful. and the most overlooked for their power. Jo (25:35) Yeah, but also can be the hardest because I think we overcomplicate things and something simple doesn't feel right. It feels I'm missing something here. I'm not doing this properly. And that's where the idea of just being and walking in without so many expectations. Michelle (25:47) Right. unfamiliar. Jo (25:59) and just being curious and compassionate with yourself is that's why those are really big pieces of the definition of mindfulness. Michelle (26:08) sure. And then another thing that I do actually want to talk about is the deterrence that come up in the mind while you're sitting in mindfulness. And so that's kind of the difficult aspect of being still is that you're going to become aware of what's happening in the background of your mind that you typically are not aware of because you're so distracted by the external noise. So that when that does come lot of Buddhists, teachers, they teach that we have these deterrents, we have these, what do they call disturbances that come up in the mind. One of those disturbances, well, one big part is our thoughts and the thoughts that come up. And those thoughts can be meditation is not for me. I personally see that to be a disturbance and it'll stop a lot of people from moving forward. Jo (27:02) that's true. That goes back to that myth of the fact that we're not supposed to have thoughts or disturbances, especially when we're meditating, that our mind should be clear. And that's just not the case because we have between 60 ,000, 80 ,000 thoughts a day. The way I like to kind of describe it to my clients and my books is that it's more about your interaction with your thoughts. because then if you think about it, you'll take that process back out with you into life. So for example, you're sitting for, let's say you're sitting for two minutes in meditation, a thought pops up. Now it's up to you to figure out, well, how am I going to move on from this? How am I going to respond to this? And there are many tricks, I mean, tricks. There are many techniques. like labeling, like, oh, that was a sensation, or oh, that was a criticism, or that was a to -do list. You label it. For some people, labeling makes them feel better, and they're able to move on. Some people are more visual. They have a thought. They need to imagine putting it in a cloud, pushing it away, or putting it on a leaf, on a body of water, pushing it away. Some people just need verbal sort of cues. And so instead of, that visual, they can just tell themselves almost like a mantra. I acknowledge that thought. I will get back to it after this and then return back to their breath. Right? So there are many different ways you kind of need to figure out and try as well, which one works for you. But the idea here is you're having an interaction with a disturbance. And that is what happens to us every minute of our life outside of this. Michelle (28:32) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Jo (28:51) Mindfulness practice right so you're at work You're busy doing what you need to do and a text pops up. There's that disturbance so now now that you've practiced this in your mindfulness habit of How do I deal with something that pops up like a thought or disturbance? Now you're able to practice it in quote -unquote real life because you've done it in your mindfulness practice and so now you kind of can your mind can go back to that moment of Well, I was somewhat calm. I was getting into a calmer state and I recognized it and I said, okay, I'll get back to you later. I'm still doing something and you get back to what you're doing. You take a deep breath. You say that to yourself and you go back to whatever it is you were doing with work. And so that's how mindfulness can really benefit us when we're practicing it into applying it into outside of that moment of practice. into the rest of our lives. And that's why I call mindfulness a lifestyle, because if you're able to practice it there, you're able to do it with all the millions of distractions that we get throughout the day. And so that's why I think it's just so beneficial to have those interactions with the thoughts and I welcome them versus getting worried about having them and telling myself that I'm not good at meditation because in the back of my mind, I'm reminding myself. I'm practicing this for life and this will serve me outside of this moment. Michelle (30:24) I love the techniques that you mentioned because one thing that I noticed is they're all very neutral. So it's just kind of like, oh, that's interesting. A thought, well, I'm planning my day. You know, something that kind of comes and you're labeling it like this is planning. This is that labeling in this is just more like, oh, that's that. And let me go back to the breath. So when you're looking at it neutrally, you're not getting sucked in emotionally. It's not. something that really takes too much of your energy is just observing and seeing. And also when you're neutral, not too attached to that thought. So I love that. Jo (31:03) Yeah, that goes back to that whole facet of mindfulness, of compassion, right? But also curiosity, because you're curious as to, oh, well, why did this pop up in my mind? Okay, clearly my mind wants me to remember this, but I'll be kind to myself. This is not a huge deal. I'll just get back to you. I'll get back to you later. Michelle (31:26) Yeah, totally. And so you mentioned your book. So talk to us about your books and how it can help, because it sounds like you have a lot of this information in your books. Jo (31:38) Yeah, so I have two mindfulness books. One is for when you're already pregnant and infusing mindfulness into your pregnancy. And so it has examples of different mindfulness modalities that you can do throughout the pregnancy. So whether that's yoga, journaling, gratitude practice, meditation, all those different things that you can try. So that way it really sets you up. for your pregnancy and your delivery, but then because you've practiced it during your pregnancy, you can take it with you into your parenthood. And that's actually the second book is a mindfulness journal for parents. I find I first wrote the parenting book and then, and then I realized, you know what? It's hard to incorporate new things when you're in the midst of trying to be a new parent or trying to pick up a new skill when you're already. well into parenthood, it would be so much better if we can introduce this in pregnancy because then you've really worked on these different modalities and you've gotten them under your belt, gotten a taste of them and you can bring it with you hopefully once that fourth trimester sort of is past you and then you're able to use those tools you learned in pregnancy. But yeah, so I try to use those because as in many different parts of our life, we can benefit from tuning in and being aware as we discussed. Michelle (33:10) I will say, in working with a lot of fertility, when people do get pregnant, I feel like that book would really be beneficial because a lot of times people have pregnancy after loss or even pregnancy after the fertility journey could be a really anxious time. So one of the things I really work with a lot of my patients on is mindfulness, especially during that time during the pregnancy, because every test, every scan, Jo (33:26) Yeah. Michelle (33:36) could bring up so much anxiety and just go into the doctor's office. So I think that especially during that time, it could really be so beneficial to learn that. Jo (33:46) Yeah, now that's totally a great point. I did put a page or two referring to that, the trauma that you experience from, if you're coming from a background of infertility, because you're right, every little thing can be a trigger. And now that you're pregnant, it just feels super stressful. I mean, that's how I felt after having experienced that loss and it just wasn't a pleasant. pregnancy for me, which is why I just was honest with myself and said I can't do any more pregnancies. It just took its mental toll on me, but absolutely, you're definitely more triggered by a lot of things that other people may not even think of as something that could trigger you. Michelle (34:26) Yeah. Yeah, for sure. No doubt. So for people listening to this that would like to learn more about you, listen to your podcasts or find your books, how can they reach you? Jo (34:47) Yeah, thank you for that. So my website is J -A -T -L -U -R -I .com and on there you'll find a link to my podcast which is called Responding to Life, Talking Health, Fertility, and Parenthood where I'm gonna have Michelle speaking on as well as links to my books, both books which actually you can purchase on Amazon or Barnes and Noble, wherever. And I also do... retreats just for women in general. It doesn't matter if you're in the infertility process or not. My next one is November 8th through 11th in Palm Springs. And yeah, it's so great. And I did one last year in the same area. And it was really just like this magical and therapeutic moment. It's called rest and renewal because we all need it. And lastly, you can find me on Instagram. Michelle (35:27) That sounds amazing. I love Palm Springs. Yes. Jo (35:44) at Josephine R. Atlery and I share a bunch of mindfulness tips for everyone going through infertility, pregnancy, into parenthood. Michelle (35:55) That's amazing. And actually quickly talk about the they include? Jo (36:00) Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's four days, three nights, and I teach a lot of mindfulness workshops, but then I also bring in other practitioners to do a sound bath. We've done aura readings. I take people to the hot springs. I do a breathwork class, because I also teach breathwork. We do like these wish beads, intention setting. This year we're doing those vision boards. And we're... Last year we did a cacao ceremony. So I throw in a lot of stuff. It is, I want women to feel nurtured because we're just always doing so much for other people that we never take time to just care for ourselves. So I wanted to give women this experience where someone is just caring for them in this really comprehensive way. So it's super. Michelle (36:31) I love that. That sounds so fun. And talk about having a reason to be centered and present. Because I think that when you're away from your normal, definitely like seeing the normal things that it will trigger not being present or your mind will go off into, oh, I have to do this, that, and the other. When you're in environment, you're so accustomed to thinking like that, that when you're in a retreat and getting somewhere where you are in a group, you feel bad looking at your phone. You don't want to. It's part of like, you want to be part of this group and the energy that comes together too. I really believe strongly in that. I go a lot to Joe Dispenza events because you cannot beat the energy of community. There's something in the energy of everybody coming together with that same mindset and with the hopes of growth that is powerful. I think that we work together almost like a neurologically. It's like neuro... were like neurons that fire together like Joe Dispenza says, but it's true. You start to really uplift each other as a whole collective. Jo (37:58) Yeah, so I mean, I think it's that energy that you bring into it and everyone's like minded. So they're bringing that same energy with them of wanting to, um, to level up and, and experience that rest and renewal. So, uh, for your listeners, uh, if they, um, they can get $150 off with the code, uh, Lotus, they just, um, go to my website and they can see the link and all the information for the next retreat. Michelle (38:26) That's awesome. I'll put it in the episode notes. All right. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Josephine. I, we've been following each other on Instagram for ages and I was like, Ooh, I like her. She has like good energy. And I, I just like followed you in general. Jo (38:29) Yeah, perfect. Michelle (38:42) and then I'm like a big, huge family too. And I knew you went through the fertility journey too. So I was always interested in talking to you. So it's really nice to have you on the podcast finally. been a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on. Jo (38:55) Yeah, no, thanks so much for reaching out, Michelle. This is such a great conversation and such a great resource, your podcast for the community, truly. So I'm excited to have you on my own show so you can share your wisdom there as well. Michelle (39:10) Thank