Bonus - August Webinar Q & A

What The Hell Is Michael Jamin Talking About?

In August, I hosted a webinar called "How To Write A Great Story" where I talked about what a "story" really is, as well as well as how to use personal stories to help your writing. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.

Show Notes

Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist

Autogenerated Transcript

Michael Jamin:

Art is about taking something inside of you and expressing it in a way that helps you understand yourself and helps you understand the world around you. And in that way, people can see it or watch it and enjoy it and help them understand themselves. I think there's that greater good. I don't think craft necessarily does that. I think craft can sometimes be, the studio will give me a note and I'll say, okay, I can do that. That's what you want. I can do that. I don't think it's necessarily playing for the greater good. It's what they want and they're paying me. You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode. We're doing something unusual today. So Phil is back with me. And as you may know, every three or four weeks I host a free webinar where I take one subject and kind of educate you on it. And at the end, if there's time, I answer questions because about an hour long. And so usually we answer a lot of questions, but we can't get to all of them. So we save the questions that we can answer and we didn't have time. And we're going to answer it here for you today on this podcast. And by the way, for people who don't know, the webinar is always free, but afterwards, I also do a V I P room for people who if they want to pay a small fee, then they get to be in a smaller chat with me and we talk. I try to answer their questions as best I can specifically. So if anyone's interested in that, you go to michael jamin.com and I dunno where they would sign up for that on michael jamin.com/course. Probably.

Phil Hudson:

Oh, for the vip it's /vip.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, /vip. Okay.

Phil Hudson:

We're fancy here, Michael. We use high tech stuff like links, short links.

Michael Jamin:

So there you go. But now I'll answer the other questions. Phil hit me.

Phil Hudson:

I was just going to say there are a lot of really good feedback and I found that there are people who don't sign up for your course who also sign up for that v i p, and they ask some really interesting questions. And then after that I think it kind of pushes 'em over the edge to feel like, okay, this is something I can do, and then they're a little bit more inclined to invest in themselves. Some really good questions out of this V i p, and this is based off of the August webinar, and that topic was the pep talk Every screenwriter needs to hear, which is slightly different than Michael Jamin's known tone of just smashing your hopes and dreams on the rocks of reality,

Michael Jamin:

Which he's a problem. Yeah, I don't want to just do that. I want to make sure that people get, I want them to be grounded in reality. That's what I'm, I'm not trying to smash it's dreams, but I want to be realistic. Once you find out if you know what the reality is, then now, okay, now we can figure out how to get in once there's a way around every problem. That's what I,

Phil Hudson:

And that comes from early on when we were talking about the marketing for this. How do we help you grow your audience? How do we do this? And you were like, I will not sell the dream. I will not be one of those guys who just promises the dream to make a buck. I can't do that. And I was like, okay, well, it's going to hurt your ability to make money. He's like, it's not about that. I just will not do it. And so you've leaned into this sincere, radical honesty, I guess you could say, and I think overwhelmingly almost immediately people were like, wow, this sucks to hear, but I'm so glad you're saying it. It just resets the expectations a little bit. And even for me, having learned from you and been to film school and worked in the industry now for almost seven years, I still think about this, Hey, this is a script. Whenever I write a new script, this is not, I'm not going to sell this. That's okay.

Michael Jamin:

It's a writing sample

Phil Hudson:

And it frees me up to just be whatever I want it to be, not hoping that my entire life is dedicated to this one story I'm writing.

Michael Jamin:

I see good things coming your way, Phil, by the way.

Phil Hudson:

I see good things coming my way as

Michael Jamin:

Well. Yeah, because you're putting the work in and obviously you've already, it may be hard for you to see because you're in it, but the distance that you've traveled at only a few short years in Hollywood is pretty unremarkable.

Phil Hudson:

I'm keenly aware of that. Honestly, I'm humbled to be where I am. I'm humbled to host the podcast with you. I think I even pitched somebody else to co-host the podcast with you, and you're like, why wouldn't you do it? Why can't I just have you?

I don't need to, or I don't want to assume to be the guy. I do think I bring a skillset to this podcast of asking the questions the listener wants to ask, and I think that's really what I do. But yeah, I'm incredibly humbled. I think I've got some really interesting things on the horizon, and I've already had some great things this year as direct result of you and the stuff you're putting out in your course and the great feedback I'm getting from people in your course, by the way, super talented people in there just giving me feedback and making me better.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Thank you Michael. Alright,

Michael Jamin:

Let's do it.

Phil Hudson:

Okay. Structurally, we broke this up into a couple and we've kind of found a pattern here. There's kind of craft questions, there are breakin questions, there are course questions, and then there are miscellaneous questions. So I take all the questions, kind of broke 'em down, and then I'm really focusing on things that you haven't said before because there are a lot of questions we get that are repetitive questions. Should I move to la? Should I move to la? What about this? How do I get my script in the right hands? And you've addressed those tons and tons of times. So if you like this, go listen to all the other q and A's where we get questions from social media, we get questions from your course members, we get questions from the webinar starting with craft, because I think that's really what we're here to learn is how to be professional writers. I'm going to mess up a bunch of names today. You ready for this?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, that's okay.

Phil Hudson:

Shi suey, shagan. No clue

Michael Jamin:

That you said it perfectly, however,

Phil Hudson:

Nailed it. How do you win the battle against that blank screen when trying to create?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Well, the problem is you don't know what you're doing. Listen, the blank page is always intimidating even when you do know what you're doing. But if you are this locked up, it's because you just don't know what a story is and you don't know. That's what the course teaches you. How to take an idea, identify if there's enough meat on that bone to turn it into an episode of television or a movie or whatever. Not every idea is worth turning into. It doesn't have enough there. So the course helps with that. I think all that the writer's block that you're experiencing is because you don't know what you're doing. Of course you're going to be blocked. Of course you don't know what your characters are going to be doing, so at least come to the free webinar, at least I can help you with that much if you don't want to buy the course. The webinar will help a lot at michaeljamin,com/webinar

Phil Hudson:

And all the other free resources you have, like the free story lesson on your website, michaeljamin.com/free. It's another great place to start. Absolutely true. If you don't know where you're going to go, you get stuck. And for many of us, it's that middle of act two, what's going on? What do I do now? How do I get my characters to this really bad thing that's going to happen? Whatever it is. And understanding the structure as you put it out, it's just so easy to grasp and understand. It's a no brainer. I clearly know where I need to go and what needs to happen here from a strategic perspective, and then tactically I can lay in things to get me where I want in a surprising way.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Perfect. Oh, if I may, when you're rewriting, print that thing out and use a red pen, man.

Michael Jamin:

Red pen.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Michael Michael's pro tip hand amboy. What is the best way to keep improving in screenwriting or storytelling?

Michael Jamin:

Just keep writing. I would write your episode or your feature, put it aside, write another one, put it aside, write another one, and you'll find that as opposed to just keep on working on the same piece, finish it and write a second one, then the third one, and you'll find that script number five is much better than script number one will ever be. You have to just let it go and continue doing something else. So that's my advice.

Phil Hudson:

Awesome. Chelsea. Steve, how in depth do you prepare a beat sheet or treatment to pass to a co-writer? Is it important to be specific or broad out of respect for them?

Michael Jamin:

Oh, well, I mean, you should be doing the beat sheets together. I mean, I would think that's how you get on the same page. My partner and I do everything together. We break the story together. We come up with a beat sheet together. We come up with the outline together. That's how you do it. I mean, you don't want to, if they're your partner, I dunno why you wouldn't bounce ideas of each other that's, or else why have a partner.

Phil Hudson:

Another really early podcast episode we had was writing with a partner where you talk about this process and there are several schools of thought about how to work with a writing partner. There are tons of resources and different writing have different things. One person sits at a keyboard, the other does, and I think you guys do that that way. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Vers been, I used to be the one at the keyboard, but for the last couple of years he's been the one at the keyboard. Although now we both have, we use collaborate so we both can type at the same time, which is really annoying.

Phil Hudson:

That's awesome. Yeah, so there's a bunch of that and there are other people who do it, but I think the real juice of what we're saying here, what you're saying, Michael, is you shouldn't be breaking your story separate. That's not Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. You got to be on the same page.

Phil Hudson:

Yep. All

Michael Jamin:

I'll tell a quick anecdote. One time Steve and I were working on a script for, I think it was Taco fd, and we were writing the outline together and we got into a fight over what this one scene was supposed to be. And I wanted one thing, he wanted another thing. And then I said, what do you think this story is about? And he told me, and then he goes, what do you think the story is about? I said, I think it's about this. We weren't even clear on what the story was about, so we had to stop, agree on that and then move forward.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, that cleared up everything, I'm guessing.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Great. Nina in your course, isn't she? Yeah. Yeah. Nina, I'm so worried about alienating my audience for too long. Is there a theory about this

Michael Jamin:

Alienating? I wish I knew. In what way? I feel like you want to hold your audience's hand. That's how I feel. There are other filmmakers who may feel differently when I get lost. Sometimes when I watch watching, I'm like, I'm lost here. I dunno what's going on. And so that's not something that I like to do in my writing. I like to make sure that, especially if you're writing on television, because you're writing on tv, you go into a movie is one thing. You have their attention. There are hostage if they're sitting in the movie theater, but on TV show often people will be on their phone, they're reading a magazine, they're doing everything at the same time as watching a TV show. So I want to make sure they're with me the whole way or else they're not going to be engaged.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. I wondered about this one too. What does she mean by alienating, right? I don't think you ever want to really alienate your audience. I think there's suspense, there's audience superior versus audience inferior. Does your audience know more than the character? Does the audience know less than the character does? And there's different tactics and tools you can use as a writer to build suspense, and they each have their own purpose, but alienating would be, yeah,

Michael Jamin:

That's not on my list of things to do.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Sorry Nina, if we had the misunderstanding here, but let us know in the private Facebook group putting us in there with a clarification, and I'm sure Michael hopin

Michael Jamin:

Into that. Just to be clear, the private Facebook group is just for members of my course, so you have to be a paid member to get into that. But there's a lot of good stuff going on there. These people are very active, and I answer more questions there for them.

Phil Hudson:

We'll jump down because there's literally this question under the section Mark Brozinsky. Is there a Facebook group we can join to network?

Michael Jamin:

Yes, there is. And once you purchase, you get a link to that and you should definitely take advantage of it. There's a lot of really smart people trading scripts. They're doing table reads once a week. They're giving each other notes film festival. And it's unlike, they got a festival coming up, which I can't believe, and it's unlike, there are other Facebook screenwriting groups where people are pretty mean. It's almost like Reddit, screenwriting Reddit, which is the dirtiest place on the earth, but that's not what this is going on in this group. It's really very professional and supportive. I think we were smart to gate that group and say, you have to be purchased because it hasn't turned into a cesspool.

Phil Hudson:

I can tell you from the e-learning side of my digital marketing career, that when people ask, and we had this conversation with the client a year ago when they were relaunching their online membership course for a specific topic, but anyway, very well renowned company, lots of people. And I said, you need to have a community manager that's in there full-time, keeping out the R riffraff. There's spam, there's ugliness, there's all these things. And if you don't have someone doing that, it's just going to get bad. And most of these things are set up by one or two people who just wanted to start a group. And I've had nothing but bad experiences in those groups. Nothing but bad experiences unless there is some unifying factor, like an alumni group tends to perform a little bit better, be in easier place, you have a problem.

Michael Jamin:

But we don't have that problem with our group. Nope.

Phil Hudson:

In fact, you have people who self-police. I get messages from people who are like, Hey, I shared this thing. Did I break a policy of self-promotion? I was like, you shared something you produced that came out of the course. I don't think, I think that's celebrating your hard work. You're not offering to pay to read someone's script. You're donating your time every Tuesday night to run a table

Michael Jamin:

Group. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Phil Hudson:

You're good.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you're good.

Phil Hudson:

Awesome. Tomer K. I've noticed in the blacklist scripts that there's a trend of making meta commentary about the script itself. Referencing page numbers or the reader. What are your thoughts on this? And maybe define what the blacklist is for people?

Michael Jamin:

Well, yeah, I mean, the blacklist, there's really, the blacklist started as a site where unproduced professional scripts that were sold were just never produced. And it was an honor to get on the blacklist, but now there's something, now it's something else. There's two lists, right, Phil?

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, there's that list. But then there's also, you can sign up for the blacklist and pay a monthly fee to host your script so people can access it and read it and give you notes. And you can pay a hundred bucks a pop to get notes and reader feedback on your script and get rated. And that's a little bit, I think more of the commercial side of it.

Michael Jamin:

Isn't that what they're talking about?

Phil Hudson:

That's the blacklist. There's also fellowships and things. So by no means are either of us knocking the blacklist. It's just a difference in what this is. And I think what they're referencing is the original that you're talking about,

Michael Jamin:

The original list. They're thinking. There's a lot of meta jokes in it and meta references.

Phil Hudson:

I've not read them, but I believe that's what they're saying. That is the blacklist I placed on the blacklist top unproduced scripts.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, so I can't answer it then.

Phil Hudson:

But from a style perspective, do you think that's an appropriate style of writing?

Michael Jamin:

Well, if they got on the blacklist, on the legit blacklist by doing this, who am I to say? No, I just think it tends to be cheap. Breaking the fourth wall or meta. You got to really be careful. Ryan Reynolds says that well in the Deadpool, but it can become a crutch and it becomes, the problem was when you do it, you're telling the audience, this is a movie, and it takes them out of it. You've sucked them into it. This is how I feel. When I first started, I thought all this meta jokes were great. Isn't that funny? Where self-referential isn't that interesting? But now that I've matured as a writer, I feel like you're spending all this time and energy to suck people into world, to make them suspend disbelief. And now you're going to pop it with a joke, and now you got to put more energy, get 'em back into it. I don't like it. I think I don't like it. Others can feel differently though.

Phil Hudson:

And in the Deadpool comics, he would break the fourth wall. So that is not something that he's doing in film. He's living in the character. And I think it's something everyone expects from Deadpool, but he's going to have a commentary with you, and it's Ryan Reynolds. If there's anyone who can do that, it's Ryan Reynolds. Right? I could do that. I don't know many people who could fourth wall just for people. I just want to make sure everyone's clear on that. It comes from stage place specifically where there are three walls, and then there's a line, and that line is three walls or the set, and then the fourth wall is the audience. And so they're either facing the audience or they're communicating with each other, but they don't turn to speak to the audience unless it's a narrator or it's someone else having, there's a specific need for that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Fourth and wall is when you literally acknowledge that there's an audience watching your play, which is kind of odd, but it can be fun.

Phil Hudson:

Some of the first screenwriting courses I ever paid for talked about that. I was supposed to know what it was, and I got so lost. I had to go look it up. And man, that was very confusing. So I want to make sure we define that for people. Yeah, yeah. Projecting much, Phil. Cool. Pf, oh, I wanted to ask, I have a follow-up question on this. So there are screenwriting books that are kind of renowned, specifically story books by Robert McKee, more so than screenwriting books, where he says It is cheap for a writer to reference. We see, we hear, and I actually write in that style, and I get a lot of really good feedback on that. We see this happen. That's just a personal choice. I don have a problem with it. I've never had no bump on it. You read my scripts, you've never bumped on it. To be clear in the book, he clarifies that overused in the transition from, I want to say it was like it might've been silent films to specific moving into something else. So it was as a crutch, people leaned on at a certain point in the 1990, in 19 hundreds. So maybe we've got past that watch is why it doesn't bump. But I said, you answered the question, you don't care.

So that's not breaking the fourth wall in that.

Michael Jamin:

No, no, no, no, no. You're just, yeah, that's a stage direction.

Phil Hudson:

Yep. Awesome. Yeah. To me, I'm inferring camera movement more than anything. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Okay,

Phil Hudson:

Cool. P F H, should I vet my idea before I write it so I have an idea to pitch? But once you know it is doable, then I can perfect it. Basically, I had to rewrite this question. It was a bit confusing. Does that make sense?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I think what they're asking is, this is what I would do. You have an idea of a movie for a movie or a TV show or whatever, put it in a sentence or two sentences and then pitch it to a friend. And if you can't explain it succinctly, then you've got a problem. So just saying it out loud, even if you don't have a friend saying it out loud, describing it is a good waste to the, oh, okay. I know what the story is. Sometimes you don't even know what it is and you can't clarify. So for sure, say it out loud and see if your friend is interested. If that sounds grabby, it might not be.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. In that two sentences, would you say that separate from a log line, or would you call it a log?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, that's basically a log line. But if you want to expand, if you want to make it a paragraph, if you find that a log line is like two sentences, but if you want to make it a paragraph, that's fine too. But don't make it a page. Just make it short and brief.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. One script, early script, I wrote, the log line was about a small town. It's about a small town pastor who kills people. And it was interesting. See your face. That's an interesting enough logline. Yeah, I'd be interested in that. And then the questions are, well, what's it about? Why does he kill people?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I would go a little more detailed than that because if you pitched me out, I would say, maybe tell me more.

Phil Hudson:

Correct. And it's really more of an elevator pitch than anything. It's just a way to just slide it in. But the log line would be a full two sentences. Yeah. Cool. Course related question. Only one other. Today, melody, we answer a lot of these questions throughout the webinars. There's not a ton of these. Melody Jones, I have to do major research for my project. Should I take the course first or get my research done, then do the course?

Michael Jamin:

Oh, I would say take the course first. That way you know what kind of questions to ask and look for. Unfortunately, we couldn't answer this for her, probably live. But yeah, you may start asking yourself questions that you don't even need the answers to. So

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, I would absolutely agree. In fact, the script I'm writing right now, I am doing a lot of research on, because it has a technical skillset that I am very familiar with, but I don't know the intricacies of. And so by doing my research, I'm looking into that. But I broke the script first from a story perspective, not a plot perspective. I said, what's the story? What do I want to tell? What's going to happen? How are my relationships going to play out? And now it's looking at it thematically to say, how can I utilize this experience they're going through from a technical perspective to elevate that story or to add stressors? How can I use this to get to this part where they get in an argument or whatever? So

Michael Jamin:

Absolutely. What's also interesting, side note, but I'm rewatching Wolf of Wall Street, and I may be a quarter of the way through, but every fricking scene that I'm watching right now, everyone is interesting. The acting is brilliant, but every scene is written. There's something really interesting going on each scene. There's nothing lazy about that script. It's like, if you watch, you could show me one scene. I'd be like, Ooh, that's good. So think about that when you're writing your script. Is this scene amazing or not? Because that one, it was movie. Every scene is amazing.

Phil Hudson:

That's awesome. Yeah. You guys are freebie for you guys. I love that. All right. Breaking in. You ready to talk about breaking into Hollywood? Sure. Cool. There's a curse word in here. So to keep our non explicit label on the podcast F the Void, is there a chance for writers that are not from the US to find success in Hollywood? Like say, south American writers that want to make you big?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Well, there was that guy. Sure. I mean, the guy, the writer who did, ah, man, what was he? Australian? No, he was South African. It's the, ah, man. What was that movie called? District nine.

Phil Hudson:

And he did a bunch of stuff. They're all great.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And so for sure, you can make your stuff wherever you are. And to some degree, if you make a TV show in a foreign country other than the us, often it's easier to sell those shows to the US because it's IP that already exists. And for some reason, sometimes studios want that. So Wilfred, for example, I wrote on Wilfred, that was an Australian show. It did really well in Australia, and we adapted it for America here. It's not uncommon at all. So yeah, don't let that hold you back from creating great stuff.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. From a purely cinema history perspective, a lot of the best cinematography came out of Mexico when Eisenstein moved there. So there's great stuff. You've got Rito, you've got all these amazing filmmakers coming out of Central South America. And North America. You've got Tero Titi out in New Zealand. You

Michael Jamin:

Got right. I'm going to mention him. There's a movie, I'm just, I'm going to search it right now. Yeah. There's a movie I watched a couple of days ago, the Worst Person in the World. It's a Norwegian movie. Loved it, loved it. Thought it was so well done. The title was terrible. What's the title? But everything about the movie was great, except for the title. The Worst Person in the World. Yeah, go watch that. Yes.

Phil Hudson:

But there's some great films even just come out of Europe, the UK and Europe, which I think we're going to get. That's the next question is uk, maybe that one we answered in the thing. But anyway, but it's like once that musical is just fantastic and it's out of the uk. So yeah, I think oftentimes people group like UK and America is Hollywood, but they are different. You have BAFTA and you have the B, B C and the way they do their things, and then you have Hollywood. And the other thing to keep in mind too is with streaming, I mean, I get a lot of recommendations for Spanish films and TV on my Netflix, and they don't know that I speak Spanish.

Michael Jamin:

I think they Do

Phil Hudson:

You think they figured it out? I think they

Michael Jamin:

Do, man. They might. You'd be surprised. But

Phil Hudson:

I get some Korean stuff too. I get

Michael Jamin:

Ads in Spanish because I speak Spanish too. I'm like, why? How do they know

Phil Hudson:

It's not zip code related? Maybe it's zip code related. Maybe it's just la, right? But yeah, anyway, I get a lot of that stuff. And so just because maybe you get something and you sell it to Netflix, Ecuador, and then all of a sudden it's being streamed all over the world. You've got all of the Spanish channels, and then you make it here. I have to, ah, here's a great example. Squid Games, squid Games, South Korea blew up huge. Right? Huge. Parasite. Parasite. South Korea.

Michael Jamin:

But there's a catch. It has to be good.

Phil Hudson:

Better than good has to be great,

Michael Jamin:

Right? Yeah. It has to be great.

Phil Hudson:

But that's the role for everyone in Hollywood too. And there's a lot of people here who are not willing to put in the effort to get to that. Right? Yeah. And I guess follow up question from F the void, do you know any writers that are not from the US or any first world country that have made it in Hollywood?

Michael Jamin:

Well, I've had Canadian writers on my show before on the podcast. You can ask them how they did it. Other, if you come from a non-English speaking country, you're going to have a more difficult time in the sense that even if your English is really good, it may not be perfect unless you've been here a long, long time. And so that's the catch. It's hard for you to write dialogue in a language that it's not your first language. It may

Phil Hudson:

IMS idioms and all that other stuff too.

Michael Jamin:

So you do need to have really, not just a firm grasp of the language, but you really have to know it. You have to speak as well as a native speaker, but with just maybe just a slight accent. That's the only catch.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. But there are also things like Selena, there's a girl I went to film school with, and she's a writer on Selena, and she's from Mexico, and she's a second. She just got naturalized just a bit ago, but she's right around Selena before she was a US citizen.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, often. Interesting. Yeah. So if you get on a, there's demand for people with diverse backgrounds if the show is about that background. So

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, it absolutely was. I think that whole writing staff were Latin American.

Michael Jamin:

Right? Right. Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.

Phil Hudson:

Cole, our film festival is a good route to take for a script you wrote to get looked at.

Michael Jamin:

Well, you're not looking at it. You're shooting it, right? I'm not sure what the question is.

Phil Hudson:

Film festivals often have screenwriting screenplay contests attached to them.

Michael Jamin:

Oh,

Phil Hudson:

Interesting. And I can tell you, having been on staff for many of those indie film festivals, that is what pays the screenwriting contest is what pays for the cocktail hours and for the other things.

Michael Jamin:

So you're saying it's not really a way to be discovered?

Phil Hudson:

It depends on the film festival.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Oh, okay.

Phil Hudson:

Alright. So there are film festivals that I think matter. I think they're also, I think what you really want to talk about. We actually do a webinar on a little bit deeper on this, which is available on your website to purchase for like 29 bucks worth watching. Which

Michael Jamin:

One is that? Which episode was that?

Phil Hudson:

I think it's how to get past Industry Gatekeepers.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, okay.

Phil Hudson:

I want to say that's what it was. Yeah. Thanks for clarifying. But yeah, I think what you really want to look for are fellowships fellowship. So you have the Sundance Film Festival and their fellowships that they offer there. Blacklist has a fellowship. You have the academy, the Nichols Fellowship. Awesome Film Festival comes up in another question here. That's one. That's a film festival where they do give screenwriting contests awards, and there are industry people who attend that. So it's a different thing. Tribeca, some of those bigger ones, south by Southwest. If they have those options, maybe go for those. But if you're talking about the Westborough, whatever film festival, maybe skip it. Maybe Skip Save the 40 Bucks on Film Freeway.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. You heard of the film. He knows more about this than I do.

Phil Hudson:

Daniel Celiac, poor guy. If someone is still in high school or early in college, what can they do to get closer to the industry?

Michael Jamin:

Stay where you are and just write, write and make your own stuff. As a kid, I shot my own stuff on a super eight camera. Now you can shoot on your phone. I didn't have sound back then. Just keep working on your craft and read anything and get inspired by our art. Draw upon it. Don't look for a job right now. I mean, if you want to look for a job as an intern or PA or something, that's fine. But don't start thinking about starting your film, writing your screenwriting career. Just start working on Become a good writer. That's the first step.

Phil Hudson:

And I was going to suggest PA Intern Volunteer. I started volunteering at the Sunrise Film Festival because that's all I could do. And it was because I was in the recession of 2008, nine, and I just had to work and I had to work two jobs. And so I would volunteer at the Sunrise Film Festival, and I put in those hours for four years. And then that's how I got my first real break through Sundance to do some stuff aside from the work I was doing and how I met you. We've talked about previously, great bv. Michael mentions moving to Hollywood if you're serious. What about those in the uk, for example, who physically cannot get a Visa to move there?

Michael Jamin:

Right. Well, there is an industry in the uk. I mean, they do make great movies and great TV shows there. So I don't know what cities, if it's London, I don't know where the centers are, but stay where you are and become great in your country, and then we'll get you, we'll send a visa your way

Phil Hudson:

When we want that. There's a specific visa that gets you over. It's like you're an expert in your field that America wants to profit off of you by taking taxes.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. The minute America sees dollar signs on you instead of just pound signs,

Phil Hudson:

You get that special visa.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Great. Bv, I just got your pound sign joke, by the way. That was clever.

Michael Jamin:

Thank you,

Phil Hudson:

Bev. No, I did that one. Lauren Gold. Any specific tips for fiction novel writers who want to transition to screenwriting?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, create, write a bestselling book, and it'll be so easy. They will, Hollywood will come after you with buying their rights, but if you have a book that's not selling, honestly, the book doesn't even have to be good. It just has to be a bestseller because then it comes with the built-in market, and so is 50 Shades of Gray High Literature. I'm not sure, but I know a lot of people read it and loved it, and so they turned out into a movie. So it's about marketing. So these bestsellers have a built-in marketplace and look at a lot of these movies that are being made. They're adapted from movies. They're just hit books or hit books.

Phil Hudson:

And it can also be other things like The Martian, right? It was originally a blog post, a series of blog posts that we, on his

Michael Jamin:

Website. Right? I know it was a self-published book. I didn't know it started from blog posts.

Phil Hudson:

I believe it was a blog. He would post blog posts. He would publish basically a new chapter as a blog post was bought, and then he would spin on from there.

Michael Jamin:

So there's a guy who wasn't asking for permission, he wasn't waiting to be discovered. He did it anyway. He built the mountain himself

Phil Hudson:

At Twilight. Those were stories that she would tell her sister. And she brought that book and blew up. Yeah. Cultural phenomenon.

Michael Jamin:

Twilight was self-published. Did not know that.

Phil Hudson:

My understanding is that, yeah, I believe it was. And someone else, correct me if we're wrong, they'll definitely scream at me because it's such a big hit. That being said, I believe 50 Shades of Gray is a fan fiction of Twilight. That's at least what I've heard.

Michael Jamin:

I didn't know that. Okay.

Phil Hudson:

Awesome. I'm going to just offend half your audience who love those two franchises.

Michael Jamin:

That's okay.

Phil Hudson:

You're welcome, everybody. Rob, as I produced my own plays, staged comedy shows and web series for a while, great. Now is a way to break in. Is this a valid way of doing it? Does the industry care about any of this?

Michael Jamin:

Yes, of course. But the problem is you're doing all these great things, but maybe you're putting the work in, which is great, but maybe it's not good enough yet. It's okay. Keep doing it until you get good. Or maybe it's great, but it hasn't found an audience yet. So it does need to have an audience. The minute you have your web series gets discovered by a couple million people, Hollywood will find you because you are bringing more to the table than just your desire to cash a check. You are bringing an audience. But if you don't have that yet, then one or two things are happening. One is maybe your writing isn't good enough yet, or your show is not good enough yet, yet means you can keep working on yourself. Or maybe they haven't found you yet in that's the case. You still have to keep putting it out there just until you're found, until your audience finds you. Either way, you have to keep doing it. That's it.

Phil Hudson:

Andrew Spitzer, would you agree that ultimately you're selling yourself and your skills rather than a product? You got

Michael Jamin:

To bring more to the table, and like I said, than just a script. And so what am I doing on here? I'm selling myself. I suppose I have a following on social media. It helps me get more opportunities. And so I still have a body of work and people know that I'm a good writer. But yeah, I come with this other end, this other, I bring more to the table than just me,

Phil Hudson:

Just my work brother. Sorry. Yeah, and I took this too. No, no. It's your podcast, man. I'm sorry. I stuck on your toes, Mr. Jamin. I did it again right there.

Michael Jamin:

No,

Phil Hudson:

I was going to say I took this as an, I think it's a bit of both, and I think the order is a little bit different, but my perspective of this, you have a product. That product is so valuable to someone that they want to buy it because you were able to craft that product. And because of that, now your skill sets are valuable and you are now selling your ability to continue to craft products like that one. So you have to have a sample that you've already checked the box. You can make these people money. If you can't do that, there is no evidence of your ability and your skillset. So there's nothing to sell.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Phil Hudson:

But I think it goes for your script. I think it goes for getting an agent. I think it goes for getting a manager. I think it goes for opening doors to meet people. You have to have something that is valuable to them. And it might be audience like you were just talking about. That might be enough, right? It might be your IP from the story you wrote and self-published.

Michael Jamin:

Sometimes it'll be approached by an actor, a big actor who has a terrible idea for a show or whatever, because you're going to be in it. And so you're a good actor. So that's bringing a lot to the table, their presence.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Sidebar here. Is there truth in the statement that there are certain actors who are not able to open a movie, who are not able to, that they come and they might have a name you'd recognize, and they might have some idea of a following, but they're not necessarily someone a studio would bank on?

Michael Jamin:

For sure, but I can speak more to this from the TV side, but for sure, I know even John Travolta, Quentin Tarantino wanted to cast Travolta in Pulp Fiction. And I think there was some pushback from the studios. He was a, has been. He was a washout, even though super talented guy. And Tarantino saw him and thought, dude, this guy is still a huge star. He can't walk down the street without people yelling. Vinny Bobino, people love him. And so he pushed, he fought for him, even though the studio didn't believe he could open a movie, and he did open a movie.

Phil Hudson:

He did. Did he ever?

Michael Jamin:

And then think of all the other opportunities that came because of that. But sure, the studios, at the end of the day, they're not so concerned with, is this actor a good actor? They want to know, can this actor put asses in seats? Will they sell tickets? And that's why some actors were not particularly good actors or great actors, but they can put asses in seats. That's what counts.

Phil Hudson:

Yep. Awesome. That's what I thought. I just wanted to get some confirmation there. This is a Phil Hudson q and a. Are everybody I can ask my questions too. Awesome. Lappe two TV or Lippe tv, whatever. If a short film is being optioned to pitch as a series, is it better to keep the short hidden while it's being shopped around, or is it okay to post it online?

Michael Jamin:

Well, it's

Phil Hudson:

A bit of a one percenter for you, right?

Michael Jamin:

This is

Phil Hudson:

A one off question.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. If you put your short on YouTube or whatever, and it gets a million views, it's a lot easier to sell. It's a lot easier to sell.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. What I got from this question is, I made a short, somebody has optioned that short. Is it a mistake to now put that on YouTube? Does that advice still apply there?

Michael Jamin:

You'd have to talk to the person who optioned it, because now it's theirs. They have the rights to go to talk to them.

Phil Hudson:

Cool. Len Lawson, should I ask a potential producer to sign an N D A before reading my script?

Michael Jamin:

I wouldn't. But it depends who, I've never done that. But also, don't show it to the producer who's got a handlebar mustache. Who are you showing it to? Make sure what have they done? Look 'em up on I mdb. Are they legit or are they just someone who's claiming to be a producer? In which case, you better build a rapport with them. You better know whether you can trust this person or not. But I wouldn't. I would never ask. And I've told my scripts to tons of people. I don't ask for an N D A.

Phil Hudson:

I wouldn't either. It's just friction. I think about this in terms of friction, and we talk about adopting habits or influencing people to take action. There's this whole nuance of digital marketing called conversion rate optimization, which is, how do I get more people to take the action I want them to on my website, whether it's the headline or it's the colors or it's pattern interrupts, or if it's offers or bullet points, all that stuff. And to me, you want to reduce friction. How do I remove obstacles? And in sales, the best way to overcome an objection is to kill the objection before it becomes one. And that's a massive objection.

Michael Jamin:

Were to, I'm not a producer. I'm not an agent. I don't want to read anybody's script. I'd say right up front, I'm not. But if someone were to ask me for the favor, say, Hey, will you read my script? And then for some reason I was feeling magnanimous that day as opposed to every other day of the year, then I would say, all right, I'll read your script. And then they asked to ask me to sign an nda, a I'd like, forget it. The deal's off.

Phil Hudson:

We're done.

Michael Jamin:

We're done.

Phil Hudson:

And that's what you're doing.

Michael Jamin:

But

Phil Hudson:

I think it also speaks to the psychology of people who are breaking in, who are so concerned. Someone's going to steal their idea. And that's one of the most prominent questions we get. This is that question asked a different way.

Michael Jamin:

Everyone is so convinced that they have an idea that's worth stealing. That's the funny part. Everyone thinks their script is gold, and most of 'em are not.

Phil Hudson:

By most, we mean a lot of them. A 99.99. And that's a hard thing for me to admit too, guys. I thought I was going to win an Oscar with my first script. I thought I was that prodigy. I've talked about Prodigy syndrome before on the podcast. I thought that was me, and it's not. And letting go of that's been so freeing for my creativity and my enjoyment of the process. So just look at it this way, if you think this is all you got, that's a problem. And that's why you're freaking out. My opinion is steal my idea. Awesome. Go for it. Why? Because that validates the fact that I got something and I got a lot more of that. Right?

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil Hudson:

But also, please don't steal my stuff.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, don't steal the stuff that's for me to do.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Everything Jamin writes, I actually write, I'm his ghost writer. I've been a ghost writer for 26 years.

Michael Jamin:

Yep.

Phil Hudson:

I submitted a pilot, Nolan. See, I submitted a pilot to the Awesome Film Festival. Is this a good move? Is it bad timing with the strike I submitted before I knew there was going to be a strike.

Michael Jamin:

There's no bad timing. I mean, you're not going to take, if you become a hit at, if you win some prize, great. When the strike is over, you can capitalize on it. I don't think there's bad timing.

Phil Hudson:

No. I think there's specific advice on this from the W G A that I've seen, and it basically says that if you win anything that was done before the strike, it's whatever. But it's what you do with that after. So let's say that you submitted to a strike that was funded by a studio in the A M T P, and then you win. And part of that prize is to have a meeting with a producer that is in breach, because that is happening after the fact selling. Even having a meeting with them is a breach. It's crossing a picket line.

Michael Jamin:

So just to first say, Hey, thank you. I'm so excited. I can't wait to have this meeting with you in a month or two. When this R is over,

Phil Hudson:

You don't want to take that meeting to ruin your potential for a career because you can't get in the W G A and when the strike's over, they can only hire people who are in the W G A and they will not hire you because

Michael Jamin:

They won't give a crap about you. I mean, if you think you're going to build a friendship with them, they're going to be gone.

Phil Hudson:

Nope. They're going to make their payday and move on. And then when the Writers Guild qualified writers can come back, they will get their high quality scripts back from the people who write 'em. And you'll be sitting there just wasted opportunity with the Austin Film Festival. However, I believe it is technically, and I could be wrong, but I believe it's in, and I did submit this year, by the way, to everybody. I'm in the same situation. I'm not concerned if I win, awesome. I'm not planning on winning. It's just a benchmark, a litmus task for me to say, did I qualify? Am I good enough? Where am I at in what I consider to be a respected film festival? And you take what you get out of it, you accept the accolades, and then you move on and just avoid anything that crosses the picket line. Don't take this as an opportunity to scab.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Cool. Four questions. Michael, you think we can do it?

Michael Jamin:

Let's blow through. Let's do it.

Phil Hudson:

Shauna Ibarra, miscellaneous. How do you find mentors or people who can give you feedback?

Michael Jamin:

You got to earn it. You got to earn it. You got to get a job or an internship or something at a studio, at a production company and work your butt off. And then after six months say, Hey, can I show you my script? But it's not like mentors are just lining up to help you. Or maybe they are. Maybe they're retired people, I don't know. But that's the connections part. That's the work you have to do. This is your job is to make connections, and it's to give first. And that's what I would do.

Phil Hudson:

I was given advice from a production supervisor and a producer that at a certain point you get an ask and you should take your ask

Michael Jamin:

That time. You have to earn that ask first. Right?

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. And there are many people I've personally worked with in Hollywood where I probably have that ask, and I'm not taking that ask because I don't want to waste their time.

Michael Jamin:

You're saving it

Phil Hudson:

For when it's time. Yeah. Erica little since screenwriting is not audience facing, like acting. Is it an ageist industry? Since it is generally Hollywood based.

Michael Jamin:

Ageism is the last accepted in Hollywood that said, there are plenty of examples of people who are older who are still breaking in. So it's not like it's impossible, but they're still favoring the youth. But it's not impossible, especially if you do it yourself. I am always yelling at you, do it yourself so no one can stop you as you're older, you have wisdom, you have more life experiences to draw upon, and you might have a couple of bucks in your pocket so you can invest in yourself.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, good point. Aaron Kami, what is your advice on how to make writing and screenwriting a less lonely pursuit? Especially when writing is a hobby. How do I meet and learn from others or get feedback, et cetera?

Michael Jamin:

Well, that's kind of one of the pluses of our course that Phil and I have is that there's a private Facebook group just for students. And it's a community. They trade scripts, they have table reads, they have a contest coming up. That's the community. That's their graduating class. That's their cohort. That's one way to do it.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Any other thoughts? Are you

Michael Jamin:

No, it's like I said, I think, I don't remember if we mentioned this or the last podcast, but it's a really good group of people where it's not, yeah,

Phil Hudson:

I was on top of this one.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, okay. So I've already mentioned it. So yeah, it's really high quality people in this group,

Phil Hudson:

Solid feedback. And even playing field, they're telling you things based off of what matters, not things that they've heard or read in a book. It's like, this is how a writer's room is going to give you notes. Here's a document, here's a workbook. Michael prepared with the types of notes that matter. That's the feedback he get.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Okay. Last question, Scott. Koski wants to know, Michael, would you consider your book art or Craft?

Michael Jamin:

Oh, good question. When I'm writing for tv, I consider that craft. I consider it. I know it is. I'm getting notes. I'm getting feedback. It's very collaborative. I don't think art at its core, and this is open for debate, but I think art, its core is not about compromising. And when you work with a bunch of people or when you're collaborating, you are going to compromise it. Compromises have to be made. And so it's everyone's work. And that's why I feel like it's craft. But I was thinking about this last night, and then I was like, well, what about Michelangelo? Sistine Chapel? He took notes on the Sistine Chapel. He was working for the Pope. He had to put some angels in there that he didn't want to put in. He had to compromise his vision. But you certainly wouldn't say the Sistine Chapel is not art.

It certainly is. So I'm a little confused as to what my definition is. Even I'm other words, I, I'm contradicting myself. I do think art is about taking something inside of you and expressing it in a way that helps you understand yourself and helps you understand the world around you. And in that way, people can see it or watch it and enjoy it, and help them understand themselves. I think there's that greater good. I don't think craft necessarily does that. I think craft can sometimes be, the studio will give me a note and I'll say, okay, I can do that. That's what you want. I can do that. I don't think it's necessarily playing for the greater good. It's what they want and they're paying me. I also don't think design is necessarily art design. Sometimes a can be about selling something. So the design of the Apple boxes that they sell their phones and really beautiful, well done. But the design has an intention, and that is to sell this image of apple, of this blank slate, this pure white open for possibility, creative, blank slate. So is that art? No, I don't think so. I think it's design. I also, so there's art, craft, and design, but you can have your own opinion, feelings. And this debate has been raging for centuries.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I apologize. You might've answered this for you. Your book, is it art or is it craft? Oh,

Michael Jamin:

For me, the intention was only art. I was drawing upon my craft to make art. Whereas I don't usually draw upon my craft to make art. I usually do it to make a TV show. And so the book is called a Paper Orchestra. And when I wrote it, I was very, very, I was struggling with this. I've read similar books that were written by television writers. And to me, they felt like they had, I could tell they were written by sitcom writers. That's not to say that it was goofy. It just felt like it wasn't deep enough and it felt like they had taken the network note. Often we get notes from the network with the networks, can you round the edges off? And when you're writing on a network TV show, we'll often anticipate these notes and we'll do the notes in advance. But for this book, I was very insecure about it. I was kept on arguing with my wife, does this feel like it was written by Sid Car Rider? And sometimes she'd say, yeah, and sometimes she'd say, no, no, no. And so I was always pushing myself. I wanted to be seen as an author, not as a sitcom writer who wrote a book that feels like a sitcom. And so whether or not I achieved that, that's up for the individual to decide. But that was my intention. And I think intention's important. Think it counts for something.

Phil Hudson:

Absolutely. And it sounds to me like you took the craft that you've been working on for years and years and utilize it as a litmus test for your art.

Michael Jamin:

And if anyone wants to sign up when it drops or when I start touring, it's michael jamin.com/upcoming. But it's interesting because when people have enjoyed it and performed it as I performed, or when they've read,

Phil Hudson:

It's fantastic.

Michael Jamin:

Thank you. It's very visual. So I think when I write these scenes, I think, oh, what are we watching in our mind's eye as this scene goes? So there's that. I do write as if I'm a screenwriter. I don't know if I'll ever be able to get rid of that. And I do write, it's not high literature. I understand that. I don't know if I ever could write high literature, and I don't think, it was never my intention.

Phil Hudson:

I think it just speaks to the value of art. And you said it's to the greater good. And I think sometimes the greater good is what do I want to write? What is best for my soul?

Michael Jamin:

Yes.

Phil Hudson:

That's the intention. And that is the greater good. And that's the difference between canon fodder is the term that comes to mind. I don't know if that's appropriate, but it's just the BSS that can be mass produced, the AI generated content that can be mass produced versus the singular thing that only Michael Jamin could do because it spoke to his soul and came out of him based off of what he needed to express at this moment and what was going on in his life, reflecting on all of the experiences he's had.

Michael Jamin:

And that's interesting because how I protect myself from ai, because people say, what are you doing about ai? AI cannot write my stories because it hasn't lived my life. And these are very personal stories, so it just can't, AI might be able to do other things, but it can't do what I'm doing. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Yep. Beautiful stuff, man. I love when we end on these great little notes like that because I think it's incredibly valuable to people who are struggling with this. I know a lot of writers think they're artists and they want to be artists, and you are. You're doing something pure. And with the right intention, regardless of the quality that you can do now compared to everybody else, it's the best you can do with what you have right now. That is

Michael Jamin:

Art. And that's the advantage that an amateur or non-professional screenwriter or writer has over what we do. I'm a professional writer. It means I get paid. People are paying me to put out stuff that maybe I don't necessarily want to do, but I'm taking the money so I have to do it. But when you're writing for yourself as an amateur or you get to write whatever you want and you don't have to compromise and you don't have to worry about the money, you already have a job on the side, what you're doing, not you, but what those people are doing is more pure in that sense. You are writing because you just want to write, it's closer. It probably has a closer chance of being art than what I do when I take the paycheck.

Phil Hudson:

But it's probably also the thing that is going to get you into the machine to become the professional paid writer who does the craft?

Michael Jamin:

If you don't, right? If you stop thinking about, can I sell this and start thinking about how beautiful is this thing I'm making? And we were just talking to him a minute ago about Wolf of Wall Street, how I'm only a quarter way through, but every scene is so interesting. The writing is so great in every scene. Not lazy, nothing lazy about it, man. Yeah,

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Well, it kind of leads to the end of the podcast. And so before we jump the gun, what do we say? Keep writing. That's Keep writing Do

Michael Jamin:

Phil. Great. Another great talk. Alright, everyone, keep watching. We have great stuff for you on the website. We like to always like to plug that. If you go to michaeljamin.com, what you can get is a free lesson on how to write. You can get on my newsletter, which I'll send you the three tips that I think you need to watch every week. Three lessons for you to pick up free. Also on my website, you can sign up for my book for when it drops a P Orchestra. You can sign up for my webinar, which we do every three weeks, and you could sign up for my screenwriting course. That's going to cost you. You can get a free writing sample that I've written all this stuff. Go get it. Yeah, it's all [e-mail]

Phil Hudson:

And there's other valuable things you have on there too. You can get the webinar rebroadcast. This was the pep talking screener writer and he's here. You can go get that. There's also the VIP Q and a, so these are the questions we couldn't answer in the main one. There's a VIP q and a. You can go sign up @michaeljamin.com/VIP for the next event and just have a chance on Zoom in a small group to ask questions directly to you. And

Michael Jamin:

Let me clarify so the webinars, because I'm glad you brought that up. So the webinars are free if you attend live, they're free. If you miss it, we send you a free replay for 24 hours. But if you want to catch the old ones because you're like, Hey, those are really good, those are available on my website for a small fee,

Phil Hudson:

But they're lifetime access, so you buy it once. It doesn't have a take clock. It's like jurors, you have access. It's in there with the course. If you buy the course, you get access to all of them and the webinar, when you attend, you give away a free access to the course. So somebody will win that. And a pretty nice discount as well.

Michael Jamin:

Yes. Alright, Philly, we did it. Thank you everyone. Until next week, as Phil likes to say, keep writing.

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear this with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar @michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJamin,writer. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Green Music, by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.

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