Episode 259 – ppable Authors and People Who Learn To Control Fear with Keri Wyatt Kent & Susy Flory

Unstoppable Mindset

This episode of Unstoppable Mindset is for me a special one. It has been three years in the making. It is a celebration by any standard.

At the beginning of the pandemic, I began realizing that while I had talked for years about escaping from the World Trade Center I had not begun teaching people to control fear: something I did successfully on September 11. So, I began working toward writing a book about the subject. I approached my co-author of Thunder Dog, Susy Flory, but she was quite busy studying in a PHD program, her own writing and running a writers conference.

Susy introduced me to Keri Wyatt Kent. A friendship and team bond were formed. Today, August 20, 2024 the fruits of Keri’s and my labors are released in a new book entitled “Live Like A Guide Dog: true stories of a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and walking in faith”. The book is our effort to help people realize that they can learn to control fear rather than being “blinded by it”.

On this episode, Keri, Susy Flory and I discuss the book. Lots of stories as well as a discussion of what went on behind the scenes. I hope you like the episode and, if you haven’t done so already, please order a copy of the book.

About the Guest:

Keri Wyatt Kent is the author or co-author of more than two dozen books. (see her website portfolio at www.keriwyattkent.com) She has been published in Christianity Today magazine, Today’s Christian Woman magazine, Outreach magazine and many other publications. She is the founder and principal of A Powerful Story, an editing and publishing company. She publishes two newsletters on Substack: Welcoming and Wandering, which explores hospitality and travel (at https://welcomingandwandering.substack.com/ ); and A Powerful Story newsletter, which offers writing and publishing advice (see https://keriwyattkent.substack.com/.

Susy Flory is a #1 New York Times best-selling author or co-author of fourteen books, including The Sky Below, a new memoir with Hall of Fame Astronaut/Explorer Scott Parazynski, and Desired by God with Van Moody. Susy grew up on the back of a quarter horse in Northern California and took degrees from UCLA in English and psychology. She has a background in journalism, education, and communications and directs a San Francisco Bay Area writers conference.

She first started writing at the Newhall Signal with the legendary Scotty Newhall, an ex-editor of the San Francisco Chronicle and a one-legged cigar-smoking curmudgeon who ruled the newsroom from behind a dented metal desk where he pounded out stories on an Underwood Typewriter. She taught high school English and journalism, then quit in 2004 to write full time for publications such as Focus on the Family, Guideposts Books, In Touch, Praise & Coffee, Today's Christian, and Today's Christian Woman.

Susy's books include So Long Status Quo: What I Learned From the Women Who Changed the World, as well as the much-anticipated 2011 memoir she co-wrote with blind 9-11 survivor Michael Hingson, called Thunder Dog: The True Story of a Blind Man, His Guide Dog, and the Triumph of Trust at Ground Zero. Thunder Dog was a runaway bestseller and spent over a dozen weeks on the New York Times bestseller list.

Ways to connect with Kerri & Susy:

www.facebook.com/keriwyattkent

www.instagram.com/keriwyattkent

https://www.linkedin.com/in/keri-wyatt-kent-328b2810/

http://www.susyflory.com/

https://www.facebook.com/everythingmemoir

About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. . Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, Hi again, everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today is a special one. I think it's special anyway, and I think our guests will agree today you're listening to this. It's It's August 20, 2024, and it's special because for the past almost three years, I and Kari Wyatt Kent, who you'll meet in a moment, have been working on a book. It's my next book, and the we had various titles, but we ended up deciding with the publisher, Tyndale house, to call it live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and walking in faith. All three of those are relevant, and we can talk about those. And along the way, we've also had a lot of help from Susy Flory, who worked with me when we did thunderdog, and we wrote thunderdog, which was a number one New York Times bestseller and was published in August of 2011 I don't know what it is about August, but, oh, that's okay, but I think there's relevance to it being August this time anyway. Susie Flory was on Episode 10 of unstoppable mindset, way back in December, December 1, specifically, of 2021, and 12 days later on the 13th of December, Keri Wyatt Kent was on episode 12 of unstoppable mindset. So if you guys want to hear those two episodes, you can go back and find episodes 10 and 12 and hear our individual conversations with Susie and Carrie. But now I'd like to introduce you to both of them and all three of us, I think, we'll tell you a little bit about ourselves, and then we'll get into other things that are related to what we want to talk about, unstoppable mindset. But the big thing is, today is the day we're celebrating that live like a guide dog is released. It was released today. It's out there. If you haven't ordered it, we hope you will from wherever you want to order books, and if you have pre ordered it, you'll be getting your copy pretty soon. So anyway, welcome Susy and Kari. I'm glad you're here. We really appreciate your time, Susy. Why don't you tell us a little bit about you? I Susy Flory ** 03:33 certainly will. But first I want to say congratulations to the both of you. I'm so excited about this book. Can't wait for it to get out there and for people to enjoy it. Mike, I was thinking I did a little quick math, and you and I have known each other for 15 years now we have we How many marriages don't even last 15 years? Right? Really, Michael Hingson ** 03:58 well, we we met because you called one day and were writing a book called Dog tales, and you wanted to include Rozelle story, and you asked me to tell what happened on September 11. And so I bit I did, and I took maybe, I think, close to 45 minutes, and then afterward, there was this pause, and all of a sudden, Susie said you ought to write your own book, and I want to help you write it. And I sort of was a little bit reluctant, because I'd been working on it for a long time and had some ideas and advice from people, but it just wasn't going anywhere. But it did with Susie and her agent became my agent. He got a contract with Thomas Nelson publishing, and the rest, as they say, is sort of history, yeah. And I Susy Flory ** 04:43 have always loved animal stories. My first few books, I didn't get to do anything like that, but as soon as I could, I started writing animal stories. Dogtails was the first one, and then working with you on thunderdog was the second one. Yeah. And that's kind of been a theme of my life. My dad was a Texas cowboy, and I grew up on horses. He was kind of a horse whisperer. My daughter works in wildlife rescue, and she's a squirrel whisperer. And I just love the way that animals sort of make their way into your heart, and there's a healing and bonding process that happens that so gentle most of the time you don't even realize it's happening until you need them. And that really, has truly been my experience. So Mike, that's really a part of your story that captured my heart, along with a lot of other elements of the story, I've been writing now for about 20 years, writing and publishing, I direct a writer's conference, and Carrie's actually part of that. And we try to help writers become the best that they can be. And then in the last few years, I've been in seminary, furthering my education. Right now I'm in a doctoral program and working on my dissertation, so my hair is becoming more and more gray in that process. Well, Keri Wyatt Kent ** 06:17 and I met Susy probably at least 15 years ago, maybe more, I'm not sure when it was, but we were both writers. We worked with the same agent at the time, and then I pretty soon got involved with the West Coast Christian writers the conference that Susie was leading, and we just clicked. We We are both animal lovers. I think that's part of it. I love dogs. I also grew up riding horses, as she did and and we both had horses later in life at at the same time. And I agree there's that there's just something that animals kind of intuitively know and connect with you on this emotional level. And, you know, the the dogs that that I met through helping Mike right live like a guide dog, when we initially started it, we were going to do, we were going to include some other dogs, you know, service dogs and other people's dogs. And so I just, I got to meet some really cool dogs during this whole research project. And so I think that people who you know, if the idea of this book is about overcoming fear and managing our fear figuring out how to live courageously. And I think even if you don't have a guide dog or a service dog, animals can help you do that. They force you to be in the moment, which is one of the one of the ways we that we can deal with fear and anxiety, is to be in the moment. And animals sort of force us to do that Michael Hingson ** 08:02 if we pay attention to them. I think you're absolutely right. And one of the lessons that we talk about in the book is the whole issue of living in the moment, not doing so much, what if? Because, if we What if everything to death, we create a lot of fear in our own lives. And one of the the basic mantras I have lived by, especially since September 11, although even before, but mostly after September 11, is don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on what you can, and the rest will take care of itself. And the lesson really comes from dogs, because after September 11, I contacted the veterinarian department of Guide Dogs for the Blind, and also talked to Roselle trainer and so on and and said, How do you think that this whole event would affect Roselle? And one of the things that they asked me was, was Roselle threatened along the way? And I said, No. And they said, well, was she hit with anything? Or did anything endanger her? And I said, No, not that she would notice at all. And they said, Well, there you are. Dogs. Don't do what if and when it was over. And we got home on the night of September 11, I took Roselle harness off, and I figured I was going to take her out. She would have none of it. She ran off, went to her toy box, grabbed her favorite tug boda bone, and started playing tug of war with my retired guy, dog, Lenny, and that was it. The two of them just played. Eventually, she did have to go out, but by the same token, they played. It was over. Roselle was glad to be home, and we moved on from there, and I think it's an important lesson. When the pandemic began, I realized that although I've been talking for at that time, 19 years about surviving the World Trade Center terrorist attacks and so on, and being able to go down the state. And not exhibiting fear and not exhibiting panic. I learned to do that and created a mindset in my head, because I spent a lot of time prior to September 11, learning about all of the issues in the World Trade Center. Where do you go if there's an emergency? What are the rules? Because for me, of course, I'm not going to read signs, but also, I was the leader of an office, and I was responsible for the people in that office, or whoever might be in the office at the time. So it was really important for me to know that. And so as a result, I learned what I could I learned how to travel around the world trade center, learned where things were and all of that, although it wasn't until much later that I realized it. All of that created a mindset in me, you know, what to do if there's an emergency and when it actually happened, although certainly we didn't expect it, the mindset kicked in and when the fan, when the pandemic began, I realized we really needed to start to talk about teaching people how to deal with fear, and as I would put it, teach people that they don't need to be blinded by fear or overwhelmed by fear, that fear is an important tool, no matter what you might think about. Oh, well, if it happens, it's a natural reaction. You have control over what you do and how you feel when something horrific or something unusual happens, then fear can be a powerful tool that you can use to benefit you, rather than letting it overwhelm you and cause you not to be able to make decisions. And you know, today in our in our world, politicians and others are doing nothing but promulgating fear in so many different ways. And we don't learn enough about stepping back and really analyzing what they say, whoever they are, and going back and saying, wait a minute. Is this real? Do I need to be afraid of this? Or is there anything that I can do about it? And that gets back to the don't worry about what you can't control. Most of it we don't have direct control over, except, I would say, at the ballot box on november 5. But by the same token, there's so much that we take personally that we shouldn't because we're not going to have any effect on it. And so what we need to do, and what live like a guide dog allows us to do is to learn how to control fear. We talk about being introspective. We talk about taking time at the end of every day to look at what happened. Why did it work? What didn't work? I don't like the concept of failure. I think that failure is only a lesson that we can use to move forward and that it doesn't need to be bad if we don't allow it to be bad, but if we use it as a tool. So that's what live like a guide dog really is about, and it is one of the, I think, the books that can truly help so many people recognize that they have a lot more control over the specific things in their lives than they think they do. Or, as we say here on the podcast, they can be more unstoppable than they think they are. Keri Wyatt Kent ** 13:12 Mike, I think that's so good. And you know, some of the things that we have in the book, as you recall, um, are strategies like we can't worry about what we can't control. But for example, you mentioned, like learning your way around the world trade center. That was a step of preparation that enabled you to then in the moment when things were you know, where there's chaos. You had been. You had prepared yourself, and all of us can prepare ourselves, you know, for understanding the world around us, for gaining information that will help us in a long when, if, when, and if something happens, to deal with it in a in a brave way and not let fear get the upper Hand. Yeah, still feel afraid, but if we're prepared, we go, okay, I know we're I know what to do next. I know what you know. I know where the exit door is, whatever it was that you know, you were able to know your way around the world trade center that helped you as you were, you know, evacuating from a tower that was on fire, you know? Yeah, so it preparation was a great tool, and it's one of the strategies that we talk about in the book that can help us to not let our fear make us panic. So, Michael Hingson ** 14:37 you know, one of the things that we do a lot in the book, at various places, is tell stories. And I, as a person who's been involved in sales most of my life, believe that the best salespeople are people who can tell stories that relate to whatever their customers are interested in, and so on. So one of the things that comes to mind is a story that took place a few years after September 11. I was in Oregon in. Working for Guide Dogs for the Blind, and I had to go up to Gresham, Oregon, where the, well, our boring Oregon, actually, I love that name, where the second campus of Guide Dogs for the Blind is located. And I got there and put stuff away, and decided I was going to go out to dinner. And I had learned where a restaurant was and how to get there. And I got there, that was no problem. But coming back for some reason, and I don't remember what specifically happened, but for some reason, I couldn't get back to the apartment where I was staying, and I felt real concern when I when I first couldn't make it work, I retraced my steps, got back to the restaurant, and then tried it again, and still we didn't get to the right place. But what I also realized is you've got to deal with this, because it's not rozelle's job to know when Roselle was the guide dog at the time. Guide Dogs don't lead. They guide. Their job is to make sure that we walk safely. I have to give and had to give Roselle direction, and that is the case with anyone who uses a guide dog. People always want to say, well, of course, the dog just leads you around. No, that's just not true. Anyway, as I after the second time of not making it work right, I suddenly realized, wait a minute, I have in my pocket, and it was fairly new, so we didn't think of using it as much at the time, but I had a talking GPS system. I turned it on, I put in the address of where I wanted to go, and within five minutes, I was at the apartment where, where we were staying. But the issue is, I had to step back and recognize, don't be afraid. There are ways to make this work, and what you need to do is to use your skills to resolve the problem and solve the problem. And so many people won't do that. They they just get afraid. Blind people oftentimes do it. Sighted people do it in so many ways. But the fact is that it's it's a very powerful tool to use something that we call in the rehabilitation world with blind people today, and I think others, but the National Federation of the Blind calls structured discovery. You get lost, you start to go back and analyze where you were supposed to go and how you were supposed to get there, and maybe where you actually went wrong. And structured discovery is a very powerful thing. I also think that using technologies like GPS have, especially now, become a lot more dominant, and that's fine, because it's the technology's job to give me the information that allows me to decide what I want to do. But you know the bottom line is that the fear went away as soon as I recognized, oh, I know how to do this, and I'll just use the talking GPS system, and it should be able to give me what I want to know. And it did, Keri Wyatt Kent ** 18:07 yeah, I love that story. And I think one of the things I learned as as your co author, you know, it's your story, and I was, you know, helping, you know, you write it, but, but I learned so much about guide dogs. For instance, what you mentioned when you were telling that story, that the guide dog doesn't lead you, you don't say, go back to the apartment you've been to once, Roselle, she's, you know, it's not like Lassie, you know, movies, Michael Hingson ** 18:35 and that's all right. And no matter what they say, Timmy never did fall down the well, but that's never fell down Keri Wyatt Kent ** 18:39 the well, ever is that was just, anyway, the idea of, and I've, you know, when I was I got a copy of the book recently, and, you know, had a publication. And the I was explaining to my husband, well, the guide dog doesn't lead and he goes, Well, how does he know where he's going? I said, Well, the same way you do but, but it's, it's that the guide dog guides, but the the handler has to give direction to the dog. Because I think it would be more scary if, if the dog had the magical ability to just take you where you want to go. I feel like it would be scarier because that's literally you have no control or no awareness of what's going on, whereas the way guide dogs actually work, you're a team, and you're doing it together, so you both have agency and control over various aspects of your journey together, and I think that makes it less scary. So Michael Hingson ** 19:41 it is a team effort, and, and you're absolutely right, and that the reality is that it's a team effort where we both learn to trust each other. And, yeah, I think that families who have dogs really need to learn more about their their dogs. Um. Or and other animals too, but we're going to talk about dogs today. The the fact of the matter is that, in reality, dogs love to be around people, and they actually want us and hope that we will set the rules so that they know what they're supposed to do. They love rules, and that doesn't mean in a negative sort of way. But you know, if you just let your dog run around the house, tear up the furniture and all that, and you don't do anything about it, the dog's going to do that until you say, wait a minute, this isn't what you're supposed to do, and you don't need to deal with that in a negative way. There are so many ways to train a dog properly with positive rewards and so on, food rewards and clickers and other things like that, to to really set the rules. But when the dog knows what the rules are, and you continuously say, Good dog, when they do the right thing, they love that, and they will be a much more value added member of the family. As I tell people, dogs do I think love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally. And you have to develop that trusting relationship with your dog, whoever you are. It isn't just service dogs, but with service dogs especially, it is a true, absolute team effort that we need to deal with and that we need to form. I need to know that Rozelle is going to do or now Alamo, current black lab guide dog, is going to do his job and convey to him I trust you. And likewise, he wants to know that I trust him. It. It really does go both ways. And when you develop that trusting relationship, it's second to none. Just like any other kind of teaming relationship, Keri Wyatt Kent ** 21:52 I think you hit on something important, Mike, is that your dog wants the structure of of rules and knowing your expectations and wants to meet them, and you'll enjoy your dog more. And your dog will enjoy being a part of what he's considers the pack you know, of your family. Everybody will enjoy it more and feel safer and less fearful if they their structure. You know, I think sometimes dogs are when they're they act out it. They're kind of like kids who act out they are because they're afraid, and they don't know where, where the boundaries are, and Michael Hingson ** 22:30 they don't know what you expect of them. And if you don't convey that, and again, it's a positive thing, you don't go up and beat a dog because it doesn't do what you want. That's not the way to handle it. And there are humane societies, humane associations, and so many organizations around the country that can help you appropriately train your dog. And you should, you should do that. You should really learn what training is all about. But if you do that, you're also training yourself, by the way, we used to live up in Novato, California, which was right by the marine Humane Society. And one of the things that we had discussions with people at the society about, many times, was, in reality, they do more training of people than they do of dogs, because it's really teaching the person how to address and deal with the dog much more than it even is just teaching the dog what the rules are. Right. Now, I don't know about squirrels, Susie, but you know, Susy Flory ** 23:34 they're in a whole other category. They're Keri Wyatt Kent ** 23:37 a whole other category, although I think your daughter, who is very good with all animals. I I remember seeing her with her dog when I visited, and she had an amazing bond with them, with with, you know, and, and that was really cool to watch. There was just this mutual respect between the two of them. Susy Flory ** 23:59 Now, our career actually came as a result of my dog. I have a little Terrier named sprinkles, a Silky Terrier who's 14 now, and when she was really young, I had taken her out in the backyard. Teddy was, I think, 16 at the time, and sprinkles started pointing. And I didn't know these little terriers did that, but she just looked like one of those English hunting dogs. And she had her paw up, her tail out, she was pointing at something. And so I went over to look. She wouldn't come inside. There was a nest of baby birds that had the nest had been destroyed, and the birds were on the ground, these little, tiny babies, and I just left them. That's how heartless I was. I just thought, you know, they're not going to survive. They looked like they were dead. I just left them and picked up sprinkles, took her in, and Teddy came home from school. About a half hour later, I was telling her, you never guessed what sprinkles did today. Well, she didn't care what sprinkles did, but as soon as she heard the word baby birds. She ran out and back. She picked them up, she nursed them back to hell. She stayed up all night feeding them, and the next morning, she said, This is what I want to do for my life. And there's just sometimes an intuition that dogs have, you know, sprinkles found these baby birds, and that connection I will never forget, you know, that bond between her and the dog and the birds and many other animals afterwards. So there's sometimes a mysterious way of working in our lives that dogs can have. Michael Hingson ** 25:36 Well, talking about bonding in mysterious ways brings up the memory of a story of how you two bonded. Does anybody want to tell that story? You told it to me. So now you're stuck. Keri Wyatt Kent ** 25:49 Susy, this is your favorite story so and I've been talking so go ahead. Michael Hingson ** 25:55 Susie, Susy Flory ** 25:56 yeah, you know how sometimes in a friendship, when you go through something hard that I know you and Rozelle went through, and you know many of the other stories you tell them in the new book, it brings you closer together. And Carrie and I had a moment. We were already friends, but we decided to go snow skiing one day, and we both were not like champion skiers. It was just for fun, and we were all dressed in our gear and headed up the hill, and a woman came running from the side of the road up at the top of the mountain and was yelling at us that there was a man in the ditch, and we didn't know what was going on. We stopped. We went over and looked, and there was a man unconscious in a ditch with this motorcycle on top of them. And so it turned out that he had passed away. But, you know, there was a good couple of hours of, you know, summoning the fire department. We had no cell service, giving statements to the authorities, you know, taking this woman back to a restaurant nearby for soup, and really just kind of going through this awful experience together. I mean, it's very traumatic, you know, to see someone who's just passed away from an accident. And, yeah, I think sometimes those things bond us and give us that, that relationship of trust and of teamwork that goes very deep. And Mike, I'm remembering how thunderdog had the working title of trust and teamwork, and I learned so much from you about that concept and kind of how that works. And it's not easy to have a relationship like that. Sometimes the hard things are what, you know, kind of forges that bond. Well, you know, Keri Wyatt Kent ** 27:45 Susie, as you were saying that, I thought, You know what? That's when I knew Susy was someone I could turn to in a crisis, and she would keep a cool head and know what to do, because you just went, Okay, this lady's crazy. You know, having this woman was, like, panicking. She was, she was having a panic attack, you know, almost ran in front of our car and, and you said, alright, we don't have cell service. Carrie, you're going to stay here with this lady and I'm going to drive to where I can get get help. And you just, like, kind of had very decisive, clear, but very calm, very nurturing kind of way with this lady. And I was like, I don't know what to do, and you're like, Carrie, you're going to do this, and I'm going to do this. And I was like, I really like how decisive and yet compassionate you are, and I think that's part of what bond just not just finding a dead guy, which makes for a great story, and, like, a traumatic experience we shared, but I saw you your leadership in action, and I was like, this is a person I can trust. And so I think sometimes that's true with our animals as well, you know, like but when you go through a difficult situation, a fearful situation, if, if you are with someone who handles that well, you learn from them, and you also learn to trust them. Michael Hingson ** 29:06 So, you know, we talk about telling stories and so on, and one of the stories that I told a little bit in thunderdog, but didn't really, at the time, internalized it like I should have, and I have since is regarding going down the stairs. We got to about the 50th floor going down, and I mentioned it in thunderdog, and we also talk about it in more detail and live like a guide dog. But suddenly my colleague David Frank, who was in the office with me that day, because we were going to be doing sales seminars. And David came from our corporate office in California, and David's job was to deal with pricing models and all that, and he was going to teach our resellers all about the pricing options and so on, while I was going to do all the major technical stuff, because I was going to be the regular contact for these people. Anyway, we were going down the stairs and we got to about the. 50th floor. And suddenly David said, Mike, we're going to die. We're not going to make it out of here. And immediately I went, I got to stop that. I can't let him do that. We've been trying to keep panic off of the stairs, and various people at various times, help with that. So I just said in the sharpest voice, I could stop it, David, if Rosella and I can go down these stairs so can you. And that was intentional. What David told me later was that that did bring him out of his funk, and what he decided to do, and asked me if it was okay, and I didn't really care, but yeah, it really was okay. He asked if it would be a problem if I if he just walked a floor below me on the stairs and shouted up to me everything that he saw. And I said, Sure, go ahead. So we start down the stairs. I get to the 49th floor, and all of a sudden I hear, Hey, Mike, I'm on the 48th floor. All clear here, going on down. And he told me that he wanted to do that because he needed to take his mind off of what was bothering him, which was, who knows what and what are we going to get out of here? So then I get to the 48th floor, and he's on the 47th and says, 47th floor. All good couple floors later, I'm on floor 45 and he goes, Hey, this is the 44th floor where I am now. This is where the Port Authority cafeteria is not stopping going on down the stairs, and he went all the rest of the way down the stairs shouting up what he saw. Did I need it? No, was it helpful? Sure. It was. Because we got to the 30th floor, and all of a sudden, David said, hey, the firefighters are coming up the stairs. Everybody moved to the side. Let them buy and we had some interactions with them. But the point of telling you the story is that I realized, actually only in the last few years how important and how absolutely useful and necessary what David did was all about that is to say he kept saying, I'm on whatever floor he was on and going on down the stairs, he became absolutely a focal point for anyone on the stairs who could hear him. So anyone within the sound of his voice knew that somewhere on the stairs there was someone who was doing okay, or at least who sounded okay, and that had to keep so many people from panicking going down the stairs. 19th floor. All good here, and I think that's so wonderful that he did that. And he was doing it, I think, and he said to keep his own fears in check, but he was helping so many people go down the stairs and that that kind of thing isn't really talked about so nearly enough, but it helped him deal with his own fear, and it helped so many people as we went down the stairs. It Keri Wyatt Kent ** 32:53 was just very reassuring, not only, you know, to every like you said to everybody who could hear him, and you know, sometimes we just need to know it's going to be okay. There's somebody you're not alone, you know, well, Michael Hingson ** 33:04 and the re the reality is that he conveyed that message to so many people, probably 1000s of people, because, you know, we were all on these open stairwells, and so so many people above and below him could hear him. And I think that I love how important? Susy Flory ** 33:22 Yeah, I love how he was keeping people in the moment. You know, everyone was focusing on the task at hand. And I think that helps keep fear at bay. It Michael Hingson ** 33:33 does. And you know, the other part about that is we didn't know what was going on. We didn't know that it was a hijacked aircraft that crashed into the towers. We figured that an airplane hit the building because we were smelling burning jet fuel, but we didn't know what the details were. And so I'm sure minds were going in so many different directions as to what was going on. As I tell people, I love to read science fiction, so I was imagining all sorts of things. But I also knew that no matter what I was imagining, we got to deal with going down the stairs and focusing and all that which which we did. And I know people followed me because they kept hearing me telling Roselle What a good girl she was. Good dog. Keep going, what a good dog you are. And they, they, they told me later, look, if you could go down the stairs and just encourage Roselle and all that, we're going to follow you. Which is, which is what they did. And you know, the reality is that we can control fear. Fear doesn't need to overwhelm us. And again, as I've said, it's a it's a very powerful tool. And we talk about ways that you can learn to do that, ways that you can learn to calm and quell fears in your own lives, by introspection, by thinking about what goes on on any given day, and anybody who says that they don't have time at the end of the day or at the very beginning of the next day, but I think especially at the end of the day, to take a few moments. And go. How did it go today? What worked, what didn't? Why didn't? What didn't work? Why did that happen? What do I learn from that I'm a firm believer, not that I'm my own worst critic in everything that I do, although that's what I used to say, I've learned that I'm my own best teacher. Because ultimately, people can provide me with information, but I have to teach it to myself, and I have to take the time to allow myself to learn from what I'm thinking. And I believe that all of us are our own best teachers, and that we need to take into account what we feel and analyze it, and the more of that that we do, the more introspection, and the more self analysis that we do, the the stronger that mind muscle becomes, and the less we're afraid. And that's, of course, a lot about what live like a guide dog is really about. Keri Wyatt Kent ** 35:55 Mike, I'd love to share with your the listeners some of the strategies that, as we talked through, you know, your story, and the way that you have, you know, figured out how to, like you said, become more self aware, some of the strategies that are, you know, offered to people so that they can learn. In the book, we talk about awareness and we talk about preparation, which mentioned that before we talk about flexibility, we talk about perseverance, empathy, trust and teamwork, which, obviously that's a big one, right, even things like listening and rest, which seem more passive, actually help us to do like what you're talking about, live in the moment, right? And of course, Faith is an important part of of not being afraid, and we talk about that a lot, and just of listening to your instincts, listening to your own, you know, your own intuition. Um, so those are some of the like, the strategies in the book. And I think if people will, you know, read the book, they'll, they'll learn how to implement those strategies and teach themselves how to turn their Fear into Courage. And that's one of the reasons I'm excited about this book, Michael Hingson ** 37:17 and the reason we call the book live like a guide dog is that it's all about all of these lessons that we're talking about are lessons that I learned from observing dogs over the years. I've said a number of times, no offense to them, but I've learned a whole lot more about trust in teamwork and dealing with life from working with now eight guide dogs and my wife's dog, Fantasia, who was Africa's mother, and Fantasia was a breeder for guide dogs also. But I learned so much more from those dogs than I ever learned from all the team experts like Tony Robbins and Ken Blanchard and all that, because it's no offense to them, they teach a lot of good things, but it's personal and internalized when you have to live it, and you live it working with dogs, when the team learns how to to work well together, and I think it's so important to do that. So there's no doubt that in so many ways, this is a book about dogs, but it's also a book about more than that people and the relationship between dogs and people, the human animal bond, and something we haven't talked a lot about, which we can talk about briefly here, is that this book, just like thunder dog, since I am a firm believer in teamwork, was a collaborative effort. Susie and I worked together on thunderdog. We both wrote, we we evaluated each other's writings, and we put together a book that was very successful. And Carrie and I have done the same thing with live like a guide dog. It is a collaborative effort, and I think that's so important, because I think that the whole idea of teamwork brings different perspectives and different ideas that all ended up going into the book, and I think will make it a very successful book. Keri Wyatt Kent ** 39:13 Yeah. Well, thanks, Mike. It's been a really a lot of fun to work on. And like I said, I learned a lot. You know, it's interesting. You talked about learning from the dogs. There were times where your dogs had to learn from you, not to be afraid. Like, I don't know if you want to tell the story, sure, Klondike, when you were training him. Michael Hingson ** 39:32 Well, let me, let me first of all say, Well, I'll tell the story, and then I have a second Klondike story. So, and by the way, we talk about these in live like a guide dog, and some of it was referenced in thunderdog, but we get more relevant and detailed in live like a guide dog. But when I first met Klondike at Guide Dogs for the Blind, the class supervisor was Terry Barrett, who. Who I hadn't really gotten to know. But because of what happened, we became pretty close afterward. And what happened was when about the last week of the class, we started going into San Francisco to get good city work in and more populated areas and so on. And the first time we went in, everything was fine, but the second time we went in, when it was my turn to get off the bus, I stood up with Klondike, and as the closer I got to the front of the bus, the slower Klondike walked, and he started shaking and shivering and didn't even want to get off the bus. And so everybody else was off, and Terry came on and he said, what's going on? And I said, Well, I'm really concerned about this. And he said, Just be patient with him. Work it through. Dogs do develop beers from time to time, but they also are depending on us to show them the way to to to be calm. So we finally got Klondike off the bus, and as soon as we got off the bus, he began to work pretty well. The next day, the same thing happened, and again, Klondike was very fearful. By the third day, being patient with him and encouraging and supporting him, saw Klondike actually becoming less fearful, and we were able to work through that. You know, dogs do have fears. Roselle became afraid of thunder. And, in fact, the night before September 11, well the morning of September 11, at one or 12th midnight, or 112 30 in the morning, we had a thunderstorm, and Roselle was afraid of thunder. And I took Roselle downstairs, and she was shaking and shivering, but she was under my desk, and we got through it, and then we went upstairs, and we got some more sleep. And then, of course, we went into the World Trade Center, and people have said, well, she was afraid of thunder. Why wasn't she afraid when there was an explosion or whatever happened in the World Trade Center? The answer is, first of all, it wasn't that loud, but second of all, it wasn't thunder, they know. And so Roselle didn't have a problem with all the other stuff. Now, Klondike, let's just point out that Klondike is one of those religious dogs. One day we we were members of the San Marcos United Methodist Church, and the church had invited itinerant Minister Kimball Colburn to come and and do some some teaching. And that night, then the main night, he was there. He did an altar call, and Karen and I decided we'd go up. Karen was in her her wheelchair and and I said, you want to go up? And she said, yeah. So we, we were there. Klondike was there. And I told Klondike, just stay here. We'll be back. Just stay we get up to the front of the room. We're standing in line, and all of a sudden, right in front of us, comes Klondike and sits down. He wanted to be part of the altar call, and Kimball gave him the sacrament, you know, which? Which was great. But he was that kind of a very sensitive dog in so many ways, and so it's fun that he he did participate, and was such a wonderful companion for so many years. Keri Wyatt Kent ** 43:24 You know, Mike, I um, you said something about like when Klondike was afraid to get off the bus, and you didn't get mad at Klondike, you didn't shame him. You were just patient and reassuring and encouraging. And I think that you know whether you have a dog or not, when, when I feel afraid, one of the things I think that I live more like a guide dog now than I used to, is I try to be patient with myself and be okay. Kari, what's going on? Like, what's this fear? What? And instead of going, Oh, why are you so dumb, you should just be you should, you know, just tough it out and be brave and be strong. No, I'm patient with myself, I think, more than I used to be before I worked on this book. And I encourage myself. You can do this. You know, your feelings make sense. It's okay. Just stay in the moment. I kind of pep talk myself, but I'm very patient with myself, and I think that's a hard thing to do. We're all harder on ourselves than we are on other people. We say things to ourselves that we would never say to someone else, like, how many times you go I'm so that was so dumb. You know? You wouldn't say that to somebody else. 44:38 Some people do anyway, Keri Wyatt Kent ** 44:41 and and we don't, because that's not helpful, right? So it's more helpful to be kind to yourself, and I think that's one of the things I learned from this that has helped me deal with when I feel anxious or afraid, to just be patient with myself. Michael Hingson ** 44:56 Lashing Out is usually something that occurs because. Are afraid, and we've we've grown up learning those kinds of things rather than learning. Wait a minute, there are better ways and and unfortunately, as a society, we don't really teach people how to learn to deal with fear and to make it a positive attribute in our lives and help us stay more focused on whatever it is that we need to stay focused on, and that, in reality, the fear isn't the problem. It is how we deal with it. That's the problem, and we don't learn enough about how to step back and go, Wait a minute. We can do this differently. And the reality is, the more that we take the approach of Wait a minute and really analyze, the quicker the process becomes, yeah, the first or second or third time perhaps you do it, it's going to take you a while and you got to stop and analyze and so on. But that's why I say that the mind is a muscle, and you can develop that muscle and get yourself and your mind to the point where when something happens that's unexpected, you can have a mindset kick in that says, Wait a minute. Let's look at this, and very quickly, make the kind of determinations and decisions that you really want to make and that that other people learn to make, you know, I talk about steel Team Six and other kinds of military things, and all the things that that that they learn to do, and they do learn to do them, it's learned behavior. And the reality is that we all can do that we all can recognize that we can live in the moment, we can function in very productive ways, and that we don't need to allow fear to blind us or overwhelm us. I will not say, Don't be afraid, but you don't need to let it overwhelm you. Susy Flory ** 46:59 Yeah, Mike, I have a question for you that I don't remember if I've ever asked you this before, but it seems perfect for this concept of live like a guide dog, and that is, I know you were really quite young when you had your first guide dog. They made an exception for you, and I'm wondering what was the very first lesson you learned as a teenager from your very first guide dog. Michael Hingson ** 47:23 I think the very first thing that I learned, well there, there are a couple. The first thing that comes to mind is responsibility, because I was responsible for that dog, and at 14 years old, that's a pretty awesome kind of a task to be able to perform, and it isn't just feeding the dog, it's supporting the dog. And I had a month at Guide Dogs for the Blind where the trainers really talked a lot about that, and being the youngest kid there, it is something that I didn't necessarily learn instantly, but I did learn well over a few years. But the other thing that I did learn was a lot about trust. The the the trainers always said, Follow your dog. And I think some schools for a while were were very much in the mindset of your dog never makes mistakes, just follow your dog. Well, that doesn't work, and we all, I think, understood that, at least over time, but following your dog and learning to trust your dog and learning to establish that relationship with your dog was important. And what what happened was things like, I get to a street corner, and now, of course, it's even more relevant than it used to be. I get to a street corner, we stop. I'm listening to hear which way the traffic is going, and I will cross the street the way I want to go when I hear the traffic going parallel to where I want to travel, because if it's going across in front of me, it, you know, I have a master's degree in physics. I know about classical mechanics. Two pieces of matter can't occupy the same space at the same time. And classical mechanics, and I don't want the second piece of matter to be a big car that hits me, you know. So I need to make sure that the traffic is going the way I want to go before I cross, but I tell the dog forward, and the dog doesn't go. I have learned instantly, probably there's a reason. Now, it could be that the dog is distracted, although that's rare, because I've learned to trust my dogs. I mean, the dog could see a duck and wants to go visit, but typically, that isn't what happens, especially the more you get to know the dog and you realize there's a reason for the dog not moving. When we were running away from tower two, and we came to a place where there was an opening in the building next to us, and then we wanted. Get in and out of the dust cloud. I didn't know whether Roselle could hear me or see my hand signals, but I kept telling her right, right, right. And I heard an opening, and she obviously knew what I wanted. She turned right, she took one step, and she stopped. She would not move. And it took me a few seconds to realize, wait a minute, she stopped for a reason. It's what we call Intelligent Disobedience. That wasn't the term that we learned when I got squire my first dog. It was all about follow your dog, but Intelligent Disobedience is a very important part of working with a guide dog. The fact of the matter is that I need to trust the dog. When the dog stops and doesn't do what I expect, there's probably a reason. Well, Roselle stopped and wouldn't move. I investigated and discovered that we were at the top of a flight of stairs, and when I said forward, we went down the stairs, or likewise, getting back to the street corner. If I say forward and she doesn't go, or he doesn't go. There's probably a reason, and the reason, most likely today, is quiet cars or hybrid vehicles that are running in electric mode and I can't hear them, and there's one coming down the street and the dog doesn't want to get killed, much less get me killed, unless the dog doesn't like me very well. But I don't want that to be the case. So the fact of the matter is that we we develop that level of trust, and when the dog doesn't move, I'm going to stop and try to analyze and figure out what's going on, and then we go. But that trust was one of the most important things that I had to learn a lot about in ways that I had never learned before. You know, I've been blind my whole life. I trusted my parents and so on, and I I trusted my own skills. I walked to elementary school every day until we went to the fourth grade, and then I took bus to a different school, and I was able to learn to travel around the campus and all that, but still, creating a team was pretty new to me overall, when I got squire. And so learning that trust and learning that that's a very important thing, was something that that I had to do. And again, I think it's also important to recognize you don't trust blindly. And as I said before, dogs don't trust unconditionally. They're looking to develop trust, and dogs want to develop a trusting relationship with us, but it is something that that has to be done. So even today, if the dog stops and doesn't move, I'm not going to yell at the dog. I may be wondering, well, what's the issue here? But I will stop and recognize that most likely, there's a reason. And like I said, there's always that one possibility that it could be that they see a bird and they want to go visit the bird, but guide dogs generally are are chosen because they're not overly distracted. And I want to keep it that way, so it is all about trust. And that's that's something that we all need to learn. You know, I keep hearing people talk about in our political world, well, I trust this guy. He's talking to me. Sorry, that doesn't work. Trust has to be earned, and we have to each step back in whatever we're doing and look at what's going on around us, and when somebody says something to us, I'm generally going to take the time to analyze it and see if that's really true or not, and and the more that I find that I can relate to what someone says, the more I'm really apt to trust them. But I'm not going to trust them arbitrarily or, as I would say, blindly. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, that's great Susy Flory ** 54:02 trust, but verify. Keri Wyatt Kent ** 54:04 Yeah, it's important Exactly, exactly. Michael Hingson ** 54:08 But you know it's, it is? It is so wonderful when that kind of a relationship does occur, working with a guide dog, when the teaming relationship is there, working with people, when the teaming relationship is there, is so important and it's it's such an awesome experience to have. Keri Wyatt Kent ** 54:34 I think if you have trusting relationships, whether with an animal or another person, you will be generally less afraid because you feel a little safer in the world, not that you trust everyone, and not that you're never afraid, but if you have safe people or animals, or you know connections with others, that builds sort of a a. Reservoir within you of of goodwill that you are not afraid of everything you know. I think that's why you know people or animals who have been who have suffered abuse, are less are more fearful, right? They're less likely to trust because their trust has been betrayed in the past. Michael Hingson ** 55:21 We had one of those in 2003 we indicated, when I was at guide dogs that we would care for geriatric dogs. And in 2003 I was called. I was in my office at guide dogs, and the veterinarian department called and said, we have a senior dog. She's 12, and we were wondering if you could take her. She's fearful, she's deaf, she's got arthritis. She's got a big lump on her back, which we think is an infected cyst that we can take care of. But she had never been a guide dog. She was career changed before becoming a guide dog, and they just said it was temperament. We figured it probably later we realized it was very strong willed. It wasn't a bad thing, and that today, or in 2003 they knew more about how to deal with that, and she would have made a great guide dog. But anyway, I called Karen and told her about this dog. And so we met Panama, who was a 12 year old golden retriever. She was very fearful. They thought she was deaf because they dropped a big, large Webster's Dictionary right by her in Panama. Didn't even respond. We took her home, and over a couple of months, we discovered that she wasn't really totally deaf. She was she was old and she was fearful. We think that the people who had her last had just locked her in a garage, and they maybe abused her, I don't know, but we just supported her. She was afraid to go on walks with Karen in the wheelchair, but eventually she decided that that was okay, and so Karen and she would walk. And you know, of course, all of us supported her. She was she had enough arthritis. She really couldn't play roughly with the other dogs, but she liked to be around them. One day, we were going up to Oregon for a guide dog event from where we were in Northern California, and I was putting luggage in our car, so I opened the door going from our house into the garage, and all of a sudden, like a shot, this dog ran past me out into the garage, and the van was open. She ran up into the van and went into the main part of the car, the vehicle. We knew when that happened, that Panama had gone somewhere, she had crossed a line and developed enough of a trust that she was willing to go out and get in the car and be more a part of the family. But she was very fearful, and there were still a lot of other issues with her, but the more we worked with her, the more she realized that she could trust us and we had her. For before that, she had been afraid of the car, she had been afraid of the car, she had been afraid of people were afraid. She was afraid of everything. She was afraid of everything. And it was pretty amazing when suddenly she took that leap, and it got better from then on, but she knew that we were with her and that we would support her. 58:35 Yeah, that's a great story. Michael Hingson ** 58:36 Well, Susie, any any other thoughts or questions that you might have you you've been quiet lately. Susy Flory ** 58:45 What is your newest lesson? I that makes me curious too, because you've had Guide Dogs for a while now. You had a number of them. Each one's different. Each relationship is different. So with LMO, what might be your latest lesson that you're learning? Because we're all lifelong learners, right? Michael Hingson ** 59:05 I have been really impressed with some of the new training techniques that I've seen at Guide Dogs for the Blind. I mentioned clickers, which is sort of like a, you know, those metal crickets, you squeeze a minute ago, something like that. But the idea is that when I got Roselle, they had started really investigating new and better training techniques. And what I have found is that they actually have developed techniques using technologies and just different processes that they've been able to shorten the length of time it takes to learn to use, or it takes shorter times for the guide dog to learn to be a guide dog. When I went up to Oregon to get Panama. On excuse me to get Alamo, which was the first guide dog I've gotten in Oregon. So we went up in 2018 to get Alamo, and we graduated on my birthday, so he's a great birthday present. But anyway, when I was up there the first day we started walking, the trainer was right behind me, and I knew that she was carrying a clicker. We cross the street, and actually we got to the curb and and stopped, and she immediately clicked the clicker. What a clicker is is a device that's a demarcation. And when the dog does what you want, if you immediately click and then you follow it with food rewards, the click really tells the dog, good job. You don't use it in a negative way, and that's one of the positive ways to really work to develop good, strong relationships with dogs. Well, anyway, we crossed the street, and then we walked a little bit further, and suddenly we came to the opening to an alley, and the trainer said, Let's try and experiment, because Klondike or rose Alamo was going to just go across the alley, she said, the trainer did stop and back up. And when you get to the end of the alley, stop and tell the dog halt. I did. The trainer clicked. I gave Alamo a food reward. We went back a little bit and did that two or three times, and suddenly Alamo regularly would stop at the opening to that alley, which was a wise thing to do, because cars could come out. I don't know, but I bet today, six years later, if I were to go up to warring and we went down that same sidewalk and we got to that alley, Alamo would stop because the clicker reinforced the behavior in a very positive way, so much that he'll remember it. He's a very bright dog, and I'm absolutely confident that he would so some of the new training techniques and the brightness of the dogs to be able to take advantage of those things, I think, is so important. And I think one of the things that I found most intriguing going forward. Keri Wyatt Kent ** 1:02:06 I think you know that really points to positive reinforcement again. You know, with ourselves, with others. You know, if we're you know, you know, if we say we have a friend who is always fearful, and we if we just say, Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid, that doesn't really help, but if we notice them doing the right thing to point it out, I think that improves our relationship, and it can help that person overcome fear. Yeah, you know, yeah. Michael Hingson ** 1:02:32 And we've got to get away from so much negativity and really find more positive ways for us to reinforce ourselves and also to get that same behavior from other people. I think it is so important. Yeah, well, we've been doing this for a while. I guess I would ask if there are any kind of last thoughts that either of you have. We're, of course, excited that little like a guide dog came out today, and that hopefully everyone will now even be more intrigued and go buy it. We'd love it to be another best selling book. So we hope that you'll really join us in that journey. And so if anyone, if either of you have any other final comments or whatever, let's go ahead and do them. Just Keri Wyatt Kent ** 1:03:20 you know what? I hope that people will get this book and tell others about it, you know, write a review, tell a friend. You know. I'm sure we all have people in our life who love dogs and people who wrestle with fear, and either those type people would love to get a copy of this book. I Michael Hingson ** 1:03:41 think between those two classes of people that takes in everyone and I'm, I'm everyone Keri Wyatt Kent ** 1:03:46 in the world, everyone they either love dogs or they're afraid, Michael Hingson ** 1:03:51 or both, or both, and dogs can help teach us so many things. Susy Flory ** 1:03:57 Dogs are bridge builders. You know, everyone, almost everyone, can look at a dog and, you know, kind of feel that connection to the dog. Dogs feel the connection to people. And dogs don't care what political party we are or what we think about the news or which way the economy's going. I love how they live in the moment. They look for opportunities to connect, to play, to rest and just the rhythms of life of a dog. I think, you know, there's something that we can learn there about what's important and what is not as important. And the people in our lives and those we connect to are important. The labels, not so much. Keri Wyatt Kent ** 1:04:45 Yeah, love that. That's good word, Susy. Michael Hingson ** 1:04:48 And as long as at the beginning and end of the day we get fed, we're happy. That's what Alamo said. We Susy Flory ** 1:04:55 get our treats, then we gotta get our toys. Yeah? Michael Hingson ** 1:05:03 That is what matters. Well, I want to thank you both for being here and if, if either or both of you want to come on again. We we should do it, but I really want to thank you for taking the time to be here with us today. I would love to hear from all of you out there. Love to hear your thoughts about what you've heard today, what you learned. We would certainly appreciate it wherever you're listening or watching. If you'll give us a five star rating, we value those ratings very highly. If you'd like to reach out to me, it's easy. You can email me at Michael h [e-mail] that's M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S i b, E.com, or go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is M, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S O N.com/podcast, and for you, Kari and Susy, both of you, how do people maybe reach out to you. Keri Wyatt Kent ** 1:06:02 I have a website, Carrie Wyatt, kent.com it's K E R, I, W, Y, A, T, T, K E N T. I'm also easy to find just by Googling and on on social media. My My full name is my handle on everything. So I'd love to connect on Instagram or Facebook. Um, it's my where I'm mostly at, or LinkedIn. Um, so yeah, Susy Flory ** 1:06:30 Susie, Yeah, same as Kari. You can find me kind of in those different places. And if you have a cute dog video or squirrel video, be sure and send it my way. And Michael Hingson ** 1:06:40 so what's your website? And Susy Flory ** 1:06:43 it's my name? Yeah, Susy flory.com my name is spelled kind of in an unusual way. My mom was creative. And it's S, U, S, Y, and then Flory is F, as in Frank, l, O, R, y. So we'd love to hear from you as well. Michael Hingson ** 1:07:01 So Susy flory.com and they can email you that way as well, right? That's right, yes, cool. Well, again, I want to thank both of you for being here. This has been fun, and we should do it again and not wait almost three years next time. Keri Wyatt Kent ** 1:07:21 Was a busy three years, though, Michael Hingson ** 1:07:22 busy three years, yeah, well, thank you both. Any any last words, Susy Flory ** 1:07:28 thanks for having us on, Mike. It's, yeah, it's a blast. And look forward to what you're going to be doing in the future. **Michael Hingson ** 1:07:42 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. 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