Building a Sustainable Future: Real-World Solutions for Visitor Attractions

Skip the Queue

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

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Special Clips from our previous guests:

Understanding Sustainability Reporting https://skipthequeue.fm/episodes/polly-buckland

Polly Buckland sat on the client side in a marketing manager role at BMW (UK) Ltd before co-founding The Typeface Group in 2010. She’s an ideas person, blending creativity and commercial awareness to get the best outcomes for our clients.
The Typeface Group is a B Corp Communications Agency + Design Studio based in North Hampshire. Their mission is to counteract digital chatter by championing authentic and strategic communication. Team TFG work with brilliant minds in business to extract, optimise and amplify their expertise, cutting through content clutter and stimulating sales
while reducing digital waste at all costs. The Typeface Group have been B Corp certified since October 2021 and is currently going through recertification.

Digital Sustainability and the Elephant in the Room https://skipthequeue.fm/episodes/james-hobbs

James Hobbs is a people-focused technologist with over 15 years experience working in a range of senior software engineering roles with a particular focus on digital sustainability.
He is Head of Technology at creative technology studio, aer studios, leading the technology team delivering outstanding work for clients including Dogs Trust, BBC, Historic Royal Palaces, and many others. Prior to joining aer studios, James was Head of Engineering at digital agency Great State, where he led a multi-award-winning software engineering team working with clients including the Royal Navy, Ministry of Defence, Honda Europe, the Scouts, and others.

He also has many years experience building and running high-traffic, global e-commerce systems while working at Dyson, where he headed up the global digital technical team.

Making Holkham the UK's most pioneering and sustainable rural estate

https://skipthequeue.fm/episodes/lucy-downing-and-sue-penlington

Lucy Downing - Head of Marketing and Sue Penlington - Sustainability Manager at Holkham Estates.

Transcription:

Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions.

Paul Marden: When consumers are asked if they care about buying environmentally and ethically sustainable products, they overwhelmingly answer yes. A recent study by Nielsen IQ found that 78% of us consumers say that a sustainable lifestyle is important to them. And while attractions have been great at a wide range of initiatives to improve their sustainability, this year's Visitor Attraction Website Survey will show that as a sector, we're lagging behind on digital sustainability.

Paul Marden: So in today's episode, I'm going to talk about the learning journey I've been on personally, along with my colleagues at Rubber Cheese, to understand digital sustainability and how to affect real change.

Paul Marden: I'll talk about what I've learned from hosting this podcast and how we've started to make real changes to our processes and our client sites to make them more sustainable. Welcome to Skip the queue. I'm your host, Paul Marden.

Paul Marden: Back in April, I spoke to Polly Buckland from The Typeface Group about the importance of sustainability reporting.

Polly Buckland: There's buckets of research out there as to the relationship between consumer behaviour and sustainability. So McKinsey did a study. “60% of customers actively prioritise purchasing from sustainable businesses.” Capgemini, “77% of customers buy from and remain loyal to brands that show their social responsibility.” I could literally keep quoting stats as to why businesses should take their sustainability goals very seriously and the communication of their sustainability initiatives very seriously, because it's becoming clearer.

There was another stat about primarily women making the decisions based on sustainability of a business, and Millennials and Gen Z being sort of high up the list of people that are taking sustainability creds into consideration when they're making a purchase. So, I mean, it's a barrel load of stats that suggest if you don't have your eye on sustainability reporting and communicating your sustainability goals, you perhaps should have.

Paul Marden: Of course, many attractions have been blazing a trail on the subject of sustainability for years. Going back in the archives of Skip the Queue to 2021, Kelly spoke to Lucy Downing, the Head of Marketing, and Sue Penlington, the Sustainability Manager for the Holkham Estate. First, let's hear from Kelly and Lucy.

Kelly Molson: Lucy, I wondered if you could just give us an overview of Holkham Estates for our listeners that might not be aware of you or visited there themselves.

Lucy Downing: So if you sort of picture it, most of the time when you think about stately homes, you picture a stately home with a garden. At Holkham, we are very much a landscape with a stately home. So 25,000 acres. We have a national nature reserve. A beach, b eautiful beach. It's been in Shakespeare in love. If you know the final scenes of Gwyneth Paltrow walking across the sands, that's Holkham, a bsolutely stunning. We're a farm, but at the centre of that, we've also got our 18th century palladian style mansion and that's home to Lord Lady Leicester and their family. They live in the halls. It's a lived in family home. But then we also have all of our visitor facing businesses.

Lucy Downing: So we've got the hall, our Holkham stories experience, which is an attraction museum telling us all history and the now and the future of Holkham.

Lucy Downing: We've got a high ropes course, cycle hire, boat hire, normally a really buzzing events calendar. We have accommodations. We've got Victoria Inn, which is near the beach. We've also got Pine Woods, which is a holiday park with caravans and lodgers. We have our self catering lodges, which within the park. And then we've got farming, conservation, gamekeeping, land and properties. We've got nearly 300 properties on the estate that are tenanted. A lot of those people work for Holkham, or if not, they work in the local community. We've got forestry and then we've also officiated and it's won lovely awards for the best place to work in the UK. It's a stunning landscape that surrounds it and we've got. I don't know if you've heard of her, but Monica Binnedo, which is global jewellery brand, she's based at Longlands at the offices.

Lucy Downing: She decided a few years back to base her whole business there. She got all of her shops around the world, but that's where her business is. And I think she's ahead of the times, ahead of this year. She sort of knew how wonderful it would be to be working, I suppose, and not in a city centre, so I hope that gives you a flavour. But, yeah, I think it's 25,000 acres of beauty, landscapes with a house in the middle and lots of wildlife.

Kelly Molson: I mean, it really is one of the most beautiful places and that stretch of the world holds a really special place in our hearts. It's somewhere that we visit very frequently and it's stunningly beautiful.

Paul Marden: Later in that episode, Sue shared her insights on their sustainability strategies.

Sue Penlington: So we've got three main themes. One is pioneering environmental gain I, which is all about connecting ecosystems and biodiversity and habitats. One is champion low carbon living, which is all about carbon emissions, our impact on construction and housing, our leisure operations. That sort of thing, and farming. And then the last one is the one that we always talk about. Tread lightly, stamp out waste. So that's all about recycling, reducing single use plastics and that sort of thing. So those three themes are what we're running with for 2021. We've got three goals, which are quite ambitious as well. And for me, I just see 2021 as that year of change where we'll make an impact. So we've done quite a lot of talking, and rightly so, and we want to take our visitors on that journey and really start to chip away at those goals.

Paul Marden: Now, let's talk a little bit about the fears around talking about sustainability. I think one of the things that is getting in the way of an open discourse around digital sustainability is fear. We're afraid of being judged by our actions and our intentions. In a recent survey by Unilever of social media influencers, 38% were afraid to openly discuss sustainability for fear of being accused of greenwashing. Again, let's hear from Polly, which is.

Polly Buckland: Why, again, that storytelling part of the impact reporting is really important for me, because I will say we are not perfect. These are the things that we know we need to work on, but these are the things we've done better. And that's what I really like. The BCorp BIA assessment and their framework is because it takes you across five categories of measurement, and no one's perfect in any of them, but what it does do is it provides a framework for you to better.

Paul Marden: Yes, absolutely.

Polly Buckland: And measure yourself against. Yeah, I think if. I think the messaging behind your sustainability is really important. If you're professing to be perfect and you're not, you will get stung, because I think people can see through that. But if you are showing that you're trying to better, I don't think many people could argue with that.

Paul Marden: Now, let's rewind a little and talk about my interest in digital sustainability. When I spoke to James Hobbs of the aer studios about digital sustainability back in July, we talked about my ignorance. So my background was at British Airways and I was there for ten years. It really wasn't that hard to spot the fact that environmentally, that we have a challenging problem, because when you stood on the end of Heathrow Runway, you can see what's coming out the back end of a 747 as it takes off. But I don't think I ever quite understood the impact of what I do now and how that's contributing more to CO2 emissions than what I was doing previously, which, yeah, I just don't think there's an awareness of that more broadly.

James Hobbs: No, yeah, I'd agree. And it's complicated.

Paul Marden: In what way?

James Hobbs: I guess it's complicated to quantify the carbon impact of the type of work that we do in the digital industry because I guess there's what we're shipping to end users, which is one thing, but most modern websites and applications and stuff are built on a big tower of cloud services providers and all of their equipment has to be manufactured which has a carbon impact and rare earth metals need to be mined out of the grid. All of that stuff. Theres a big supply chain backing all this stuff and we can influence some of that directly, but a large chunk of it, we cant. So it makes choosing your suppliers quite important.

Paul Marden: But in a presentation by my friend Andy Eva-Dale, now CTO of the agency Tangent, he opened my eyes to the impact that the digital sector has on the environment. The Internet consumes 1021 terawatt hours of electricity per year. That's more than the entire United Kingdom. Globally, the average webpage consumes approximately 0.8 grammes of CO2 per page view. For a website with 10,000 monthly page views, that's 102 kilos of CO2 per year.

And as we'll see in a bit, the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey shows this year that the websites in our sector are anything but average. But let's talk about my learning journey. I've used this podcast as a way to learn about the sector and to drill down into sustainability itself. My interviews with Polly and James taught me a lot. It's one of the real benefits of running a podcast.

Paul Marden: I can sit and ask people questions that in real life they may not want to talk about. Beginning from absolute first principles. Following the advice from James in the podcast, I've gone and studied the online materials published by the Green Software foundation, including their green software practitioners certificate. Some of that is quite technical, but a lot of what's in there is a real interest to a lot of people. Now let's talk a little bit about what I've learned along that journey.

In an interesting conversation with Andy Povey the other day, he talked about people's innate reaction to digital sustainability and that for many people, the move to digital feels sustainable. I'm not printing things out anymore, so it must be sustainable. Of course, all that computation and networking has a massive global impact on greenhouse gas emissions, so not every website is sustainable.

Paul Marden: In another conversation I had recently, someone said to me, why does all of this digital sustainability stuff matter? If I host my site on a green hosting server, there's no harmful emissions from the server. But that's only one part of a complex web. The power needed to connect up all the servers in the world and to all of the endpoint devices is immense. Of course, the carbon emitted to generate power varies country by country as well as by time.

And that's not really in our control. But we can definitely control the impact our website has on all of that infrastructure. As the web page is in flight over the Internet to somebody's mobile device, the power it uses and consequently the carbon emitted along the way is therefore something that's definitely in our control.

Paul Marden: The other source of learning for us this year has been the sustainability elements of the rubber cheese survey of visitor attraction websites. We made sustainability a core theme of this year's survey and we found some really interesting things. 80% of attractions in our survey have got some sort of sustainability policy, which is an amazing achievement and sets a benchmark for the sector. Also, a number of attractions are taking active steps to improve the sustainability of their website.

But we found that this isn't necessarily being done in a framework of measuring and monitoring the sustainability of their website. So the changes that people are making could be making improvements to the sustainability of their site, but at worst, some of the techniques being used could actually harm the performance and sustainability of the website.

Paul Marden: The thing is, if you're not testing and measuring, you can't ever know whether the changes that you're making are effective. The Green Business Bureau talk about how benchmarks provide a reference point to assess trends and measure progress and baseline global data. They say, "Companies have begun measuring sustainability performance, which allows them to make continuous assessments, evaluate where they lie on the sustainability agenda and make data driven decisions and policies.

Measuring sustainability requires proper selection of key sustainability metrics and a means of making effective process improvements. These measures provide real time data and much needed quantitative basis for organisations to strategise and mitigate environmental and social and economic risks." I'll come back to making process improvements later, but for now let's just stick with measures. Back to James Hobbs, who talked about the ways in which you can measure the CO2 emissions on our website.

James Hobbs: There are some tools out there that you can use to help you quantify the carbon impact of what you've got out there in the wild now. So the big one that most people talk about is websitecarbon.com, which is the website carbon calculator that was built by, I think a combination of an agency and some other organisations come up with an algorithm, it's obviously not going to be 100% accurate because every single website app is slightly different and so on, and as a consistent benchmark for where you are and a starting point for improvement. Tools like that are really good. Ecograder is another one. Those offer non technical routes to using them.

Paul Marden: Now, both of these websites use similar technologies and methodologies to understand the CO2 emissions of a website. But the survey shows more than half of attractions have never tested the CO2 emissions of their site. This got me thinking. If it's that easy to test the sustainability of a single webpage and you can run them on any website, but most attractions aren't doing it, then what can we as Rubber Cheese do to help? So in this year's survey, we've run the largest audit of visitor attraction sustainability scores that we're aware of. So working with our lovely podcast producer Wenalyn, who also supports me with the survey, firstly, I run a proof of concept gathering and comparing data for a small number of attractions in our database this year.

Paul Marden: Once we began to better understand the data, Wenalyn went and ran this against all of the sites that were in our database. With this, we hope to support the sector with a benchmark of webpage sustainability that can be used by anyone in the sector. And what this has shown us is that 58% of attraction websites are rated f by Website Carbon. That's 8% worse than the general population of all websites. But the sobering thing for me as an agency owner is that the sites that we build were in that 58%. The work that we've been doing recently isn't good enough from a sustainability perspective. So this triggered a number of projects internally for us to improve the sustainability posture of the sites that we design and build.

Paul Marden: So I'm going to dig into one of those sites and the journey we've been on to remediate the sustainability of their site, because I think it can give a really nice understanding of the journey that you have to go on, the changes that you can make, and what the impact of those changes could be. Now, we started by benchmarking the scores for the site in question from Website Carbon and Ecograder. And this site was a grade F and marked 51 out of 100 by Ecograder. From there, we drove our improvements off of the feedback that Ecograder gave us. We worked as a team to estimate the work involved in the feedback from Ecograder to identify the tasks with the lowest estimated effort and the highest potential impact.

Paul Marden: Essentially going for the quick wins, we implemented a number of really simple measures, we implemented lazy loading of images. This is making the browser only download images when they're just about to show on screen. If you don't lazy load an image on a page, then when the webpage opens, the browser will go and grab the image, calculate the size, and redraw the webpage with that image in it, even though the image is off screen. If the user then clicks something in the top part of the screen, maybe in the top navigation, and they never scroll down, they will never see that image. So all that network traffic that was used, all the computation in the browser to be able to figure out the size and paint the screen, was completely wasted because the user never got to see the image.

Paul Marden: So by lazy loading, it means that if a person doesn't scroll all the way down the page, then an image near the bottom of the page will never get loaded. And it's an incredibly simple code change that you can write in now. This used to be something that you had to write custom code to implement, but most browsers now support lazy loading, so it should be really easy for people to implement that.

Paul Marden: Another thing that we did was to correctly size images. We found that, but with best rule in the world, our editors were uploading images that were very high resolution, very big images, even though on screen we might only show a thumbnail. By resizing the images inside WordPress, we've made it easy for our editors to upload whatever size image that they like. But we only share the smaller image when somebody views the webpage, again, cutting down network traffic as a result of that. One other thing that we made a change on was to make the website serve more modern image formats.

Paul Marden: Again, we used a WordPress package to do this, called imagify, and it means that our editors can upload images using the file formats that they're familiar with, like JPEG, GIF and PNG, but that we convert them to more modern formats like WebP inside WordPress. And that has better compression, making the images smaller without any discernible loss of quality, and making the whole webpage smaller, lighter, faster as a result of it, which has the impact of reducing the CO2 emissions that are needed to be able to use that webpage just as a guide. We measure everything that we do in the business in terms of the time it takes us to do things. So we're real sticklers for time tracking, but it was really important in this project for sustainability to work out what the differences were that were making.

Paul Marden: So these changes, those three that I just outlined there cost us about a day and a half of development effort and much of that was done by one of our junior developers. So it wasn't hugely complex work that was done by an expensive, experienced developer. But in return for those changes, that one and a half days of effort, we've seen an improvement in rating by website carbon from F to B and on eco grader from 54 out of 100 to 83 out of 100. This puts the site well into the realm of better than most websites on the Internet and better than 84% of attractions in this year's survey. Is it enough? No, of course not. We can do more and in fact, there are still technical improvements that we can make that don't impinge at all on the user's experience.

Paul Marden: We can and we will make more changes to move the site from B to A or even to A+. But there's no doubt that following the old 80-20 rule, these marginal gains will be progressively harder and more costly to achieve. And there may be changes that are needed that will impinge on the user experience. Some things you cannot improve from a sustainability perspective without changing what the user is going to experience. If you've got an auto playing video on your website that consumes bandwidth, it generates network traffic. You cannot remove that video without removing the video entirely and changing it to be something that isn't autoplay but plays w hen a button presses that will have an impact on the user experience. Not everyone will click that button.

Paul Marden: Not everyone will watch that video and say not everyone will necessarily have the same feeling about the attraction that they got when there was an autoplay video in place. But there are undoubtedly lots of things that can be done that don't impact the user experience of the site. One of the changes that we still haven't made, which is a little bit more effort, it's a little bit more complexity, and adds a little bit of costs to the hosting of the website is the introduction of a Content Delivery Network or CDN. Here's James Hobbs again from aer.

James Hobbs: From a technical angle, I think one of the most impactful things you can do, beyond making sure that your code is optimised and is running at the right times, at the right place, is simply to consider using a content delivery network. And for your listeners who aren't familiar with a content delivery network, a CDN is something that all of us have interacted with at one point or another, probably without realising. In the traditional way of serving or having a website, you've got some service somewhere in a data centre somewhere. When someone types your website address in, it goes and fetches that information from the web server and back comes a web page in the simplest sense.

James Hobbs: Now, if your website servers live in Amsterdam and your users on the west coast of America, that's a big old trip for that information to come back and forth, and it's got to go through lots of different hops, uses up lots of energy. A Content Delivery Network is basically lots and lots of servers dotted all over the planet in all of the major cities and things like that can keep a copy of your website. So that if someone from the West Coast of America says, "Oh, I'm really interested in looking at this w ebsite.", types the address in, they get the copy from a server that might be 10,20, 50 miles away from them, instead of several thousand across an ocean.

James Hobbs: So it loads quicker for the user, which is great from a user experience, SEO, but it's also great from an energy point of view, because it's coming from somewhere nearby and it's not having to bounce around the planet. That's one thing that you could do that will make a massive and immediate impact commercially and from a sustainability point of view.

Paul Marden: So there's another example of something that you can do that has very little impact on the experience of the website. In fact, it massively improves the user experience of the website, takes relatively little effort, but offers a huge improvement. Those are all things that we've done to one individual website. Let's talk a little bit about how we bake that into our process. In a 2022 article in the Harvard Business Review about how sustainability efforts fall apart, they recommend embedding sustainability by design into every process and trade off decision making. I found that language really interesting. It's similar to the language used widely in technology and security that was popularised during the launch of the EU General Data Protection Legislation, which talks a lot about having a security by design approach.

Paul Marden: So taking this idea of designing sustainability into every process and trading off the decision making, we've incorporated it into our sales proposal, writing, designing and testing processes. Our people responsible for selling need to bake sustainability into the contract. We want to hold ourselves and our clients accountable for the sometimes difficult decisions around meeting a sustainability target. So we'll discuss that target at the beginning of the project and then hold ourselves to that throughout the design and build process, thereby not needing to do all the remediations that we've just done on the other website, because it's typically much easier, quicker, cheaper for us to implement a lot of those things. The first time through the project, as opposed to as a remediation at the end. We've also baked sustainability testing into our process.

Paul Marden: No site goes live without having been tested by both website carbon and eco grader to make sure that the site meets the criteria that we set out at the beginning of the work. So we've thought a lot about how we can improve what we do and we've started to go back and remediate over some of the work that we've done more recently to make improvements. But my learning journey hasn't been entirely smooth. There are challenges that I've hit along the way. I think there's a few interesting challenges that are to be expected as you're going about learning things that I wanted to share. For example, we've done work to remediate the scores of one of our sites and been super excited with the impact score.

Paul Marden: I mean, went from bottom of the Fs to A+, only to deploy those changes into production and it didn't move the dial at all on the production website. And that was heartbreaking. Once we looked into that in more detail, thinking that we've done loads of changes, move the dial such a dramatic amount, only to launch it into the wild and it barely touched things. What we realised that in the test environment that we used, we had password protection in place and the website carbon and Ecograder were testing the password screen, not the actual homepage underneath it. So there was a lesson learned for us. The other area where we've made lots of learnings is during the survey when we created our sustainability benchmark. We've seen test results so good that they can't be explained. We've seen somebody hitting 100 on Ecograder.

Paul Marden: We've also seen scores that were contradictory on Ecograder and Website Carbon, and also scores that have dropped dramatically. When we first tested in August and did a validation test checked last week, we're still working our way through these wrinkles and I think some of it is because we're looking at many hundreds of websites rather than trying to learn by testing and improving just one site. But beyond the kind of technical challenges, there remain some things that I simply don't understand. And my mission going forward is to fill those gaps. Firstly, while both Ecograder and Website Carbon use the same underlying principles and tools to calculate CO2 emissions, they often can and do give different results.

Paul Marden: Not just in the fact that one is A+, a F score and the other is out of 100, but that the basic page sizing in kilobytes and consequently the CO2 can and often is different depending on which tool you look at. And I don't understand why that is, and I need to look into that. And I'm sure we'll come back to the podcast and talk more about that once I do understand it better. But the other problem is that I'm struggling with the size of the problem and the size of the prize. There's no doubt in my mind that making these improvements is the morally right thing to do, and commercially it's right as well, because it improves your outcomes on the website as well as the sustainability.

Paul Marden: I'm just struggling with the business case, because if I had an unlimited budget, I do make every change in business that improves the sustainability posture of the business. But most marketers, most people that listen to this podcast don't have an infinite budget. They have a very finite budget, and so they have to put their budget to work where it's going to have the most impact. And what's the return on investment of spending 5k on improving the website versus changing light bulbs to leds, or moving away from gas powered water heaters in the outside toilets by the penguins? It's really difficult at the moment for me to be able to understand where this is the right and sensible investment of sustainability funding within an organisation. So I've shared my learning journey over the year. What about you? What can you do next?

Paul Marden: For one last thought, let's head back to the conversation between Kelly and Lucy and Sue from Holkham.

Kelly Molson: Are there any advice that you could share with our listeners in terms of how they start or begin to look at sustainability?

Lucy Downing: Interesting. I was chatting with Lord Leicester yesterday about the subject and were sort of agreeing that I think you definitely need to know where you are, particularly as a business. You know where you are, because then you can set your goals in a realistic fashion. And I think the one thing to remember is that it has to be realistic, because you need to set goals that you can financially deliver, because if they're not financially viable, then you're not going to be here as a business to deliver them. And what we're also finding and talking to other businesses that actually quite a lot of the sustainability gains that you can make are actually in financial ones too, because you probably cut down on some of your resources that you're using, you'll think better, you'll work smarter.

Lucy Downing: So it's just, I think that's something to definitely remember, that it has to be sustainable in all ways, socially, financially and environmentally. That's definitely some key advice. And I think be authentic. There's a lot of talk around greenwashing. Don't be guilty of thinking, wow, this is something we really should do and we're going to do it and just talk about it. It has to be authentic. So really think about where you can make the biggest changes environmentally for sustainability and focus on those and just make sure. Yeah, it's like us really. We're saying we're launching our sustainability strategy, but actually for the past ten years, we've now we've got 100 acre solar farm, we've got anaerobic digester, we heat the hall and all of our businesses with woodchip, so we've got our biomass boilers.

Lucy Downing: So we've been doing it for quite a long time without telling anyone. But what we're now doing is saying, actually, that's not even enough, we need to up it further. So, yeah, that's the thing. I think it just has to be authentic and realistic.

Sue Penlington: Yeah. And from my point of view, I'm a bit of a doer do and not a talker, so don't get bogged down. It could be absolutely overwhelming. And I think when I was first approached by my boss here, I was just like, wow. Because it isn't just rubbish, it's every single business.

Sue Penlington: It's huge. But from my point of view, small differences can make a really big impact and keep chipping away at it because solutions are out there. There's loads of people doing really cool things. And, you know, every night I'm on Google looking up something else or going down another rabbit hole because I've seen something on Twitter. So for me, every day is a school day. But, yeah, get stuck in and collaborate with other like minded people. You know, nowadays you're not considered swampy because you're talking about sustainability.

Sue Penlington: Well, you know, it's totally on brand, isn't it? And let's not reinvent the wheel. If we can learn from other people, then let's do that. I mean, go for it. Literally, every single individual can make a difference.

Kelly Molson: Oh, Sue, that's. Yeah, you've just got me right there, sue. And I think what you said about collaborating and learning from people, that has been something that's so key this year. People are so willing to share their plans, they're so willing to share what they're doing and how they're doing things. Especially within this sector, there's always somebody that's doing or, you know, a couple of steps ahead of you that you can learn from. And people are so willing to kind of give up that advice and their time at the moment as well. So definitely that's a key one for me. Ask people. Ask people for help. Ask people how to do things.

Paul Marden: I'd like to thank everyone that contributed to this episode, including Kelly, Lucy and Sue at Holkham, Polly at TFG and James at aer. Thanks to everyone that's helped me with this journey in the last year, the lovely clients we've talked to, the survey respondents, and my team at Rubber Cheese, Steve, Ben, Tom, Sinead, Wenalyn, and Oz, who've all worked really hard to benchmark the sector and to make continuous improvements to our client's sustainability. As you know, we're really experimenting with the podcast format at the moment, and if you like this or any of the other changes, I'd love to hear. And if you don't, then tough, go make your own podcast. Only joking. I'd love to hear. If you think we can make improvements, you can find me on X, @paulmarden and also on LinkedIn.

Paul Marden: If you're at VAC this week, the Visitor Attraction Conference, then I'll be there with Oz and Andy. So come and say hi to us and I'll see you again in a couple of weeks time.

Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm.

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