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In this episode of Anthropology in Business, Brooke Gibbs speaks with Matt Artz about her career as a business anthropologist. The conversation covers Brooke's early work in market research, her decision to go back to UNT to get an applied anthropology graduate degree, and the work she is doing with her company ARTYFACT. About Brooke Gibbs As an Anthropologist with over 10 years of experience working with Fortune 50 companies, Brooke combines the analytical rigor of her background in social science with an innate curiosity and intuition about people. Brooke has extensive experience building brand purpose, driving organizational change, and uncovering insight on both the product and retail side. Brooke believes brands, organizations, and retailers have a responsibility to positively impact people and society. Her goal is to help organizations find their voice and identity within their communities, so they can better address the real issues impacting people. About ARTYFACT ARTYFACT is a research, strategy, and innovation consultancy bringing clarity to business problems through human understanding. The name comes from the words ART and FACT, which represent the art and science of anthropology. Recommended Links https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1200m0Fhyc Episode Transcript Please note this transcript is an automated transcription and may have some errors. Matt Artz: All right. Well, hi everyone. And welcome back. I'm Matt Artz and I'm today with Brooke Gibbs. Brooke is an applied anthropologist from UNT, same place I went and the co-founder of ARTYFACT previously at Proctor and Gamble for I believe, 11 years and a journalism background. So, I mean, I know I just covered a little bit of that, but maybe you want to give us like maybe tell us a little bit about why actually like me, why do you choose to go back for an anthropology degree when you started somewhere else and you know, what may maybe made you do that and how has that led to say ARTYFACT? Brooke Gibbs: Yeah. Thank you. First of all, for having me one of the things that has really guided my life, even from, you know, being in school has been a real interest for other people, other people that don't look, act, whatever, like me and people who, I don't know, I was always one of those people where it's like the person in the corner by themselves. I want to go over there and talk to that person and make sure they're okay. And then bring them into the fold. That's always been who I am. And so when I, from a journalism standpoint, you know, like, as you said, it was like, that was like where my, my bachelor's degree was in. And that was because I also like to be a storyteller. I want to hear people's stories, but then also share their stories. And so that's where that came from. Brooke Gibbs: But once I was in school getting my bachelor's, I started to get into some anthropology anthropology classes and it was like, Oh, this is an even better fit with who I am, what I like all those things. So I continued on the path that I was on, which was, I was getting my degree in journalism, but at the same time I had an internship with, at P and G doing market research, which was also a whole third thing. Right. But decided to go that route because Angie was a stable company. It had good benefits. I was fresh out of out of college. So I decided to go that route, but I, anthropology was always in the back of my mind, always like even the first year I was going to quit PNG and go back to school full-time to get my PhD in anthropology. Brooke Gibbs: I it's not that I decided not to do that. Actually the world God decided that was not the right timing for me. So I kept staying at P and G at that time, and then decided in 2014. So I had already been at P and G about seven years. Well, actually I decided in 2012, so I had been at P and G for five years that I wanted to go back and really pursue this anthropology thing. I had heard that there was a program, which is the UNC program that enabled you to do a master's within anthropology, as opposed to just a PAC. And therefore I was able to do both work and that at the same time. And then I graduated in 2014 and started it started ARTYFACT, which I can talk more about if you want. Matt Artz: Yeah. Cool. So you, you know, in a previous conversation we had about probably 14 months ago in New York, you were talking about how you were at P and G you were involved in some of the market research. And so, you know, what role did that maybe play and also sort of lighting this interest? Brooke Gibbs: Exactly. So it was interesting because I started, there's a, there's a strong intersection, you know, between market research and anthropology, it's qualitative and quantitative research just anthropology or Margaret resource can house anthropology or anthropological thinking and, or it can house other things too. And so I was already just in that, that was the function I was in at PNG, but it just kind of does this really a coincidence, like it kind of worked, I already had this interest in anthropology and then I ended up going into market this market research function. Cause I was just interested in people and learning about people. And so when I would decide to go to UNT in and get this master's it made just all the sense, because I was able to directly, like in the moment you remember, like, even, probably from like some of my case studies and stuff I was doing for our homework assignments, like I was able to in the moment apply what we were learning to my job, which was really, really cool. Brooke Gibbs: And it instantly gave me credibility. So where, you know, I was there and it was like, Oh, she's, she's getting her master's in anthropology. Okay, great. Like internally at P and G I was elevated even though I was still like a student in school. So there was definitely like, I don't know, they kind of like worked together. Margaret resource helped anthropology, anthropology help the market research in terms of where I'm at today and how, you know, how I got into each one of them. But yeah, it was something that definitely worked. Those two things worked well together. Matt Artz: And so, you know, when you entered the program at UNT at university of North Texas, you entered the business track. Ultimately. I mean, we don't really diff we don't pick the track per se, but we pick the classes and, you know, in a sense, the classes aligned with that track. So we both picked business. And were you thinking you would stay at P and G longterm and you would just use the skills there? Or were you already thinking about starting your own business? Brooke Gibbs: Yeah, I was already thinking about it. So I, it was a little bit of both, and I knew that I wanted to apply the anthropological thinking to my day-to-day work. I knew what was going to show up as a value add in that current situation at P and G. However, one of the things that even sparked me to go back and you can go, go back to school at that time was I felt this calling to start my own business. And so this was like a prerequisite, if you will, to that. Cause I felt like I needed some credibility and P don't get it twisted. PNG is in some worlds, enough credit credibility in and of itself. Obviously it comes with everyone, my 97 year old grandmother, like knows P and G as well as like a ten-year-old sometimes, Matt Artz: But probably not anthropology as much faculty Brooke Gibbs: That's exactly right. So that came with his own credibility, but in certain areas that I can talk about this a little bit later, you know, anthropology gave me a little extra credibility in, when I say credibly, almost like it differentiated me versus all the other traditional market researchers out there. For sure. And so that was a big going into the business anthropology or the applied anthropology route for sure. The longterm use for it was to start my own company. Matt Artz: Great. And so they're, you know, you threw out the term business anthropology and you know, obviously that's sort of the focus as I'm framing out this podcast, but can you tell me what is business anthropology to you? Brooke Gibbs: Yeah, so it's applying anthropological thinking in corporate America for me. So, you know, there's all kinds of businesses and maybe, you know, it could be things outside of maybe it's nonprofits or what have you, but in the most kind of rudimentary, like pragmatic sense, it's saying there are these principles or this way of thinking, and I want to apply those in the business or the corporate world in order to, as a different way to help that business grow. So everything is about dollars and cents. All companies want to grow. I don't care what they can have all this great, Oh, I want to help out society. But the ultimate thing is to make more money. And so how do you position anthropology on what you can bring to the table? What that thinking can bring to the table as a new way, a differentiated way to drive growth, to help them understand their consumers, to help, you know guide maybe their, their mission or their vision. Like there could be a few ways that this is applied product innovation kind of things. Matt Artz: And so maybe that's a good jumping off point. Why don't you tell us what you do at ARTYFACT and how you're? Brooke Gibbs: Yeah, so ARTYFACT is the name of my company and it's first of all, let me talk about the, how we came up with that name. Cause it's important. It really has two meetings. So we really are obviously playing off. We spell ARTYFACT with a Y so that the eyes, so it's a R T Y F act. We wanted to play off the word ARTYFACT because an ARTYFACT is obviously any object that has meaning in a society is so ARTYFACTs that word or that concept comes up a lot in our field and what we do a E there's, the two words, art and fact in there. And so there's, that's when you hear people say the art and the science of things, that is the kind of the through line in everything we do as well. So from designing our studies to the actual research, to the analysis on the back end and the deliverable, we are making sure the art is there. Brooke Gibbs: So it could be like literal art, like the design of things, right. Or design thinking or intuition is in it, but also the science. So there's rigor and analytical thinking behind every single thing we do as well. So that's kind of the basis behind anthropology, but we, we call ourselves an anthropology based market research consultancy. All that means is that we prioritize two things. One, we prioritize human understanding is what we call it. So we want to make sure the voice of the consumer or your user or your customer is loud and prevalent from beginning to end. Okay. So their first number one, the product is in first, the consumers first, the second way that that comes through is how we do research. We like to do it in context, right? So everything about anthropology is, is saying that the cultural environment around you dictates your behavior. Brooke Gibbs: Okay. So the fact that you and I, and I'm just more so saying that, I know, you know this, but I'm saying this for your audience. Sure. You and I are sitting, you know, virtually talking to each other, we're going to behave slightly differently than if the same conversation was happening. When we saw each other 14 months ago over coffee, being able to like really see each other, like, you know what I'm saying? Like face to face all those things. So we try to set up those in context. Well, pre COVID we try to set up those in context environment so that, you know, most people think of things like in-homes right. That's in context. We want to make sure we're doing all of our qualitatives and the place that makes sense for whatever the business question is or what are we trying to learn? Brooke Gibbs: You know, making sure it's in context and making sense that way. So those are two ways that like how that shows up in our business. And I will say this, I'm going to give a sneak peek to something I'm going to say later wishes. I've gotten nothing but positive reactions and positive sentiments with the back that we are anthropology based market research firm that has never, ever once been a negative or like, wait, what exactly is that? Even if people don't know the ins and outs of it, they act like they do. And so it's still seen as seen as fresh it's seen as differentiated it's seen as value added. Matt Artz: Yeah. That's interesting. And one of the things that I think, you know, that in the recent meetup that we were both attending, you know, right. It came up there and something we talk about here in New York pretty frequently. So I want to dig into that in just a second, but just to go back, you know, the name is really interesting. I mean, I really love the way you framed that out and put it all together. Of course, you know, when we come up with creative names like that, and I experienced this in my own with my own name and conventions, sometimes people don't quite grasp it. All right. I mean, I didn't necessarily pick up on all of that until you told me. So when it comes to, you know, everything from the naming of ARTYFACT to how you position your services, do you and I, and I know you just said that, you know, people are interested in the anthropological sense of it, but do you find that there are any challenges in selling it or is it just, yeah, this is cool. We want, we want some of that. Brooke Gibbs: Yeah. Good question. So the most simplest of challenges is that people call it already fact. So, so that's just one very simple thing, but you know, after the first meeting we, we call it what it, how we pronounce it, how it should be pronounced. And then people pick up pretty quickly. So that's like a small, small thing. The other thing is with the name and everything, I just spelled out to you, we don't leave that up to guesswork. So if you go to our website, we, the whole thing I was saying about art and fact, and what we spell that out as a way to like to tell people that there is intention behind the name, but also that the name tells people who we are and what we do a bit. Right. So, you know, we don't leave that to chance. I think any challenge has been, I mean, we have all kind of business challenges, but challenges with, from an anthropology standpoint are just, Hey, so sometimes we like to, and I'm going to get into the methodologies a little bit, but we will talk about like participant observation or something, I don't know if I think I took this, this might be an anthropology thing, or I morphed it from that. Brooke Gibbs: Sometimes I get confused because it's been some years since we were in school mat, but we call analogous learning. So learning from other learning about your business problem and solution by other industries and categories that have already solved that problem. Okay. What I have found is that some companies, some clients, they are more than happy to, Oh yeah. Some, some calls, some in homes like they get in homes, they get in store immersions, they get quantitative surveys. When we start to get into some of the, Oh, let's do participant observation, even though participant observation is like pretty much a glorified in home with some other things in it. Like sometimes when we use these other words and names that they're not as familiar with, they kind of, their eyes glaze over a bit and they focus more on the things that they're used to. Brooke Gibbs: And not necessarily the things that, you know, they're not as familiar with. Right. And so things that we want to say are differentiated or things that are like, Oh, let's do this cool thing. That's not, sometimes that's not the selling point to them. And I think we have to be okay with that. It's like in its simplest form, just the word anthropology is enough. And I know that sounds crazy. And you know, sometimes I can be a purist but that's not always necessary or valued. You, you can bring the thinking in behind the scenes, but they don't always need to know what the name of the methodology is called. If it's something that's very, very specific to RP. Matt Artz: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. We can certainly just end up talking past each, each other at that point and, you know, learning the language of, of our clients, our stakeholders, that's kind of part of our job. So it makes sense to me, is there one thing that particularly that stands out that helps you, you know, sort of sell the value besides just the word anthropology, is there anything that you found, you know, within the market research space, that's really important. Brooke Gibbs: So we have this slide where we talk about what we do when it's four big buckets. And so we, I have found that when we two things, one, if we talk about ourselves at the, at a higher level, what we can do, people are energized by the fact that we can answer these bigger questions. So it's not just like evaluative in nature, like Bay are excited about the we can help you come up with a new business model if, if within a changing landscape, right. They want to, they want to hear those those kinds of things like that is that looks like value. Add, it looks like help. Another one is we help you with white space opportunities for your for a target, you know, for your target consumer, right? It's like, Oh no, I need, I need those kinds of things. Brooke Gibbs: So, so those are ways that we, besides this using the word anthropology, these are, you know, bigger questions that we can answer that that they found find valuable. I think the second thing is maybe counter to what some people think we don't try to be everything to everybody. So yes, we are a full service market research agency and we can do it all, but we are very clear to talk about our buckets. And so if you think about research, it's discovery and evaluation at its core, right? It's like some type of exploration and discovery, and that's usually upstream in the front, on the, on the beginning of things. Or I already, now I have my product, I have my message. I have my concept and I want to evaluate it. Well, we say from a high level is, Hey, we work best in the, in our, our skills are best and how we think work best within the discovery. Exploratory realm. That's one thing that we are like very, very clear on. The second thing is that we say we want to help with in general, those bigger questions and not necessarily like smaller minute things. Like, I don't know that that's as great of a use of our time in your money. Matt Artz: Yeah. That's interesting. And so when you're that, I'm sort of upfront about that. How, how does everybody respond to that? Because I'm sure some just want to hire you for everything, Brooke Gibbs: Right. And so here's where I give you a real moment. Everyone here already for the realness that I'm about to give you, I am a business owner. I am not enough. I'm not bill Gates. I'm not in a position to turn down work. Right. And so it is a balance. It really is a balance of saying, okay, here's my warehouse. Here's where we work best in. But also if you have, if you want to do a quantitative survey on something, we can still do that for you, but how we do it as we still try to bring the thinking into the way we think into their into what their request is, right? So we try to marry up, marry up the two things. So it's like, Hey, I want you to, you know, I only want you to do quant, kill me now. Cause we would rather do qualitative or if I'm going to do quant, I'd rather do the whole mixed method approach, right. Brooke Gibbs: Where I'm doing client and call for this project. It was like, Oh, I only want you to do quantum. Okay. So the way I get around that is, and this is like an internal thing. I say what type of quantum, what are you, what is your end goal? Oh, you're doing quantity better understand and find your target consumer and do more like a segmentation. Okay. Well, I can get the best back to people. I can get behind you trying to find your target audience. And so then I'm still bringing in my thinking in the survey design how some of the pre like stakeholder interviews I'm doing with clients, right. I'm still bringing that in. And that helps me feel better. And also, you know, they still feel like they're getting some value out of going with someone like an ARTYFACT versus a more super traditional market research firm. Matt Artz: Yeah. It makes sense. I mean, it can certainly help, you know, guide the survey instrument design. So, you know, in there you made the comment about being a business owner and wherever any of us who have been in that position, know what it's like to not only want to pay ourselves, but also have to pay other people and, and all the expenses. So I'd be curious maybe to hear, you know, what does your day just look like? You know, some people who might be listening, this might be thinking of starting their own business. Some others might be thinking, going to work for somebody, but you know, as somebody who owns their own business, you have a lot of unique challenges that is not simply just doing research, planning, research, and analyzing, right. But obviously, you know, building your business, building your brand, marketing yourself, you know, finance, right. There's holes through Fred, all the sort of business functions are up to you and presumably your co-founder or some team that you delegate them to. So just what does that look like for you? Brooke Gibbs: Yeah, great question. And also very relevant because I was dealing with that slash struggling with that earlier today, because there are almost two different paths and two different things that my brain has to toggle between throughout a day, throughout a week, throughout a month. Right. And what those two things are, is yes. Owning and operating a business. Right. So that is all the things you just mentioned, the finances, the operations NDAs new strategy pipeline, hiring people, all of that, right then separately. There's the actual work that my business does. Right. So the actual day to day, like I have, I have a client, they have a project and I have to moderate these focus groups or these one-on-ones, or I have to do those, whatever I have found that it's why I say I'm toggling is because you have to do both. Right. Brooke Gibbs: So you, with the being a business owner is really about is now I'm trying to grow my own business. Right. So I, I, all the things about marketing, whatever that is to grow my business, then the other part of what I do is to help someone else grow their business in a way. Right. and so the projects, the client based things, sometimes those take priority because they though they have more urgency behind them, right. They have due dates and such, but if you don't work on the first thing, right. The business, then all of a sudden that project is over and you don't have anything else in the pipeline. So what, what I challenge people to do is really take a step back and evaluate, first of all, evaluate what do you like? So the thing, and I just have to be real. Cause you know what I mean? Brooke Gibbs: At this point, Matt, like, I am a very transparent and real person. I go back and forth on which one do I like more honestly. Do I, sometimes I don't like don't, don't tell sometimes I really like the business owner side of things, the strategy, the thinking, building out the pipeline. And I don't really feel like moderating some groups in, in a, in a potential client telling me what the heck to do today. That's why I got out of someone working for somebody. Right. Sometimes I don't like that. And then other times I'm super energized and jazzed by the research side of things. And I'm like, Oh gosh, I gotta do whatever on the business side. So the first thing is like really taking a step back and seeing what elements and parts I call it, give you energy. Right? So when you think about doing this thing or you're actually doing it, where are you getting your energy from? Brooke Gibbs: The second thing I challenge people to do is making make sure that they a lot the appropriate time and there is balance in their day or balance in their week. However they best want to do it. So it could be okay. There's five days in a work week on Mondays and Thursdays, I'm going to really focus on the business ownership side of things on these other days, I want to do the projects or it could be within, I know some people do it by the day. So I'm going to get up early and from seven to 10, that is my time to focus on the business stuff. And then after that 10 to whatever the end of the day, I'm going to work on the research, the actual thing that my company does. Right? So there definitely is like, it's a lot, but those are the two things I would do think about what gives you energy. And the second thing is a lot the appropriate time to do, to do both. Cause you really that's the name of the game you can want. They both have to be done. Yeah. I have to Matt Artz: Get done. Especially when you have payroll Brooke Gibbs: Exempt, people gotta be paid yes. Matt Artz: And an on and on time, if you can't, then that's not a deadline that you can push. So in there you mentioned, you know, the pipeline, so obviously that's an ongoing need for you, but it's for anybody who wants to start a business, like the first customer is also, you know, getting that first customer in the pipeline is oftentimes very challenging. Keeping it going is maybe equally challenging. But at least getting that first one is sometimes a big hurdle. And so, you know, obviously you've done that and you've kept it going. So any, any thoughts there on what others should maybe consider if they're thinking of starting their own business? Brooke Gibbs: Yeah. So mine is kind of a hundred percent based on my experience. So I'm not saying that this is what's going to be the, you know, the, whatever they call it, the bullet, there's a saying whatever the silver bullet. So thank you. I'm like, there's a sign for this, just bullet for everyone. But most of our clients come from referrals slash word of mouth. And so number one, one thing I would say to do is when you either quit your full-time job or transition into your your new, your business, send an email out, send a text out to your friends and family. Cause even if they don't know, it's like my friends, family don't really know about research. They're not going to need me. It's not about them needing you is that they will have a conversation with somebody else. And that person will say, Oh yes, I have been like, I really don't know who my consumer is or I really need to, you know, I'm a start up and I'm trying to find seed money and I need to do a market assessment, right. Brooke Gibbs: Something like, you know, things like that, that come up. Now, that person can be like, Oh actually my niece or my friend or my old colleague. Right. So be intentional. First of all, be intentional about creating a small email or a text that has, that describes what you do and what your business does. And simple language, everyday people language don't use all the jargon everyday people language so that you are you're, you're broadening, broadening your reach. Okay. That's the best. The first thing that helped us, because we had definitely are on a, we've gotten a lot of referrals from our business. The second thing is we also subcontract. And so some of our earlier projects were sub contracting projects from us, partnering with other we'll call it friends in the business, other research agencies, what have you right now? It's about, there's a lot of these like smaller, what we call boutique firms in, in, in people doing things like this is the era of entrepreneurs. Brooke Gibbs: So there's, there's people out there doing it. There's no reason why we all have to be in silos doing it separately. And what have you all ships rise if we can kind of come together. And so the other thing is just think about subcontracting opportunities where it's like, Oh, I know this person is, they have their own research agency or own whatever, you know, business you're trying to get into. I know they have this. I want to just tell them about what I, you know, what I can provide him. And ma if they have work that comes up and they need a certain expertise or they need resource from a, they need, you know, another man, another man or a woman on the job they know about me. And now I can kind of get in the door that way because subcontracting wild, sometimes not as you don't have as much control a and sometimes not get paid as much. You also don't have to do all the like client management. You don't have to do all the work of having to find that client. Right. Like some of that stuff has done for you. And so that's the other piece. Matt Artz: Yeah. Yeah. Good point. You know, now in there you mentioned sort of at the outset of that answer, you mentioned plain language, which is more or less, the second time you brought that up, you brought it up also earlier sort of when, like sort of pitching yourself to customers. And so, you know, related to that might be a topic that frequently comes up is, you know, using theory, you know, to sort of guide our recommendations and to help frame out our insights and whether or not, you know, that theory is sort of made visible to anybody else. So, you know, obviously there's varying arguments maybe around this and there are I would assume that it's very much dependent or at least an experience it's very dependent on who you're talking to. Right. So do you kind of take the same approach, you know plain language when you think maybe the that's all the customer wants or, you know, are you also in the sense of ARTYFACT of trying to bring in the rigor? Are you also trying to sort of demonstrate the theory you're using to frame out your insights? Brooke Gibbs: Yeah, very good question. Because we've morphed over time. So at the bare beginning, when we were forming ARTYFACT, creating our proposition, trying to get our first client or two, right. Trying to get those first one in and doing proposals, I, as an afterthought, as the anthropologist, right on, on as part of ARTYFACT, I was trying to bring in the theory, at least in the, behind the scenes thinking, and also kind of, I was even putting it on a couple of slides, like using that to help justify certain things we were recommending as part of the proposal. Right. And my co-founder was, you know, high-fiving Matt and wanted me to do that. We were both kind of on that page. I will say, practically the juice wasn't worth the squeeze. So I don't know if you've heard that saying before, but like the return on that investment just wasn't there because when you are, they just, some of these businesses in corporate America just transparently, they just don't care. Brooke Gibbs: And it wasn't helping to get, get a client or not get a client. Now some of my academic advisors and teachers would be like, just do it anyway. And you know, but I, this is where it comes back back to business anthropology and applying the parts that work and the things that don't work, or maybe go over people's heads or whatever, you have to really take a step back and evaluate for yourself. Okay. Where do I really need to be a purist here? And where can I just make sure I feel good about what we're doing? But also make sure I'm not putting all this work into, okay, this is the, this is the theoretical perspective we're using hair in helping to just buy this. And they're just, that's going over people's heads. It's not helping me get up, make more money and get a project. Right. So we have definitely morphed over time. So until the point where now I think we're using more high level concepts around within this field and not as much very specific theoretical perspectives, like when I was writing my thesis, you know, and I'm like, okay, this is on organizational behavior. And I'm going to do using these methodologies because it is connected to this theoretical perspective. We're not, I'm not doing that, just transfer, Matt Artz: You know? And I mean, most people, I agree, most people don't care. I mean, I am thinking through those, you know, those lenses to help me sort of make sense of stuff on the backend, but I am rarely making it present to anybody else. You know, if it's a close customer or some of the internal projects, you know, when like we're building our own products at our company I find that there's more opportunity to have those kinds of conversations just cause we, you know, we have a relationship we've known each other for years, you know, we're just sort of talking, it's not like I'm in a, I'm not presenting the deck in, you know, in a very short period of time in front of people who have a short attention span cause they have other things to do. And so so yeah, I mean, I think it all comes down to the who, you know, what the relationship is and even the situation that you're in, but generally no. Matt Artz: You know, and, and related to that, one of the other things that frequently comes up is, you know, the pace of research, right? And so, you know, I think you're you and I are in a position that many anthropologists are like many have gone straight through with an anthropology degree that are then figuring out, well, how can I apply this? They go into business, we were working in business in various fields and decided to go back. And so, you know, where I'm going with this is, is for me to move fast was not shocking at all. Right. It was that wasn't my normal pace. Academia was too long as it was, you know, in many, many ways. Right. And and I assume, you know, given your market research experience at P and G, and maybe you, maybe you felt the same way, but do you you know, for those people who maybe are shocked by the pace at which we move, you know, do you have any thoughts on that of like, why it's worth moving at this pace? Or if you were shocked by that, you know, after doing an academic thesis, like if, if now back at an ARTYFACT you're now sort of shocked that we're doing it so much quicker. He has any observations. There are any thoughts. Brooke Gibbs: Yeah. So with, so yes, first of all, we were, I was also, yes, very used to the pace of things going fast. We're not trying, we can't do end up, I can't stay with a certain group of people in a village for months in and really do in-depth research. That's actually what I want to do. Long-Term like, I actually want to be more of a pure anthropologists longterm. So after the ARTYFACT days go in and kind of almost be like a freelance researcher where I had these passion projects and I'm able to like focus on them for a couple of months on end. Right. But I do think there's a lot. I wanna, yeah. I wanna like give a nod to the fact that there is a lot of value in that. There's a need all of those things. However, the way that I think about it and what I can tell other people is if in any way you can get people to do, to do better research or to be a better researcher or to value and understand the, the lived experience of somebody else a little bit more. Brooke Gibbs: Yes. Okay. May not be all pure and whatever, and we may not be able to spend, but if you can help a client be a better researcher, do better research or better understand the lived experience of somebody else even a little bit, then that's, then that's all worth it. So, okay. Yes. I might be doing all this research. I'm doing, you know, five focus groups in a week. And literally the research period of this project is within these five days versus five weeks or for five months or five years. Right. Okay. Yes. But I gave this client, you know, thinking like we started with a, Hey here's a little bit about how you want to approach this research. We always start there, by the way, we start with what we call a pre-brief. So instead of the opposite of a debrief, a pre-brief before we go into any research, we, we do like a mini training and it's a little bit of like, here's how we want to approach things here, how here's, how we want to talk to people. Here's how we want to show up all those things that like I leveraged from our field anthropology. So I definitely it's like, I'm doing my part, even though it may not be as, as pure. And so that's what I encourage other people to think about it in that way of like making small changes here and there. Matt Artz: Yeah. I hear you. I actually, I say almost the same thing, but I, you know, I'm obviously working in tech, I'm often kind of saying something along the lines of, you know, if we can find, identify like sort of 80% of the problems and improve it, you know, in the next iteration we'll work on sort of the remaining percentage, you know what I mean? Like the projects rarely end after one research engagement. So so yeah, but I also like your idea of, to sort of in the future long-term that is a nice you know, definitely a nice goal to have, because I would agree with you that, you know, it's, that kind of research is great, you know, if you're afforded the ability to do it, but for many of us having to just live the life, we live in business and then, you know, put food on the table, pay other people and that kind of stuff. It's, you know, it doesn't always work out that way, unfortunately, but Brooke Gibbs: I want to say one more quick thing on that. Cause you missed, maybe there is though some there's an instant gratification, a bit that comes with having these shorter, more iterative research spurts and getting to some type of, you know, result or solution that they wouldn't have otherwise have gotten to. So we're getting to a deeper place or a new place than they would have gotten to if maybe they were doing a little bit more traditional research or using traditional thinking. Like I do think that there is something to that as well, where it's like, wow, we, we got to these new product ideas and I don't know that we would have, we would have gotten there otherwise. So there's like this a little bit more of an instant gratification Matt Artz: And what we do. Yeah. And really for both parties. Right. If, I mean, if you like solving problems, it's great as a researcher, but also they get the value of, of getting those sort of insights drift along the way. Think really great. So you know, you, as a business owner, you have a lot of you know, as somebody who studied business anthropology, you have a lot of opportunity to apply what you learned to your own organization. Right. You took I think you were in the design course, right. At UNT. Did you take that one with Christina? Brooke Gibbs: Yes, I did. Sorry. Matt Artz: There's there's all this sort of, so you've touched a couple of different areas just through the academic process and obviously in your work experience covers a number, but so how has all of that also helped you start the business? You know, there's things right. We can apply to not just our customers, but ourselves. So anything interesting that you've learned from that process? Brooke Gibbs: Yeah. That's actually, that's a really, that's a really good question. I mean, I think at first of all, just as a researcher, so forget anthropologists, but just as a researcher in general, you end up doing, you use research for your own self. So it's like, yeah, what is, what is, who is my target audience or what is my, who is my customer? Right. I'm asking the same questions. I asked my clients. I do go inward and ask myself, my thesis was on organizational behavior, right? So all about helping organizations make, almost do like a culture shift. So they are operating as one way. And how do we help drive a shift to be operating in this new way and then please, or solidify those new, those new behaviors. I will say that one of the things that while I haven't been able to use it as directly, because we don't have, we, we work with independent contractors right now. Brooke Gibbs: We're not working with like full-time like hires like everyday that I'm interacting with. But one of the things that I am excited about, and I think that one of the things that can be used is what are the types? How do I, how do I want to show up as a company? How do I want my contractors or, or eventually employees to show up? So what culture and environment are me and my founder creating and facilitating and showing right through our actions, behaviors, our language, what are we showing? And then how can we help bring other people into that environment? You know, we're trying to create and show and set that tone. I think that's really important for small businesses. Because at the bare beginning, your company and you are almost synonymous, so it's like, I'm hiring Brooke for this really well you're hiring ARTYFACTs. Right. But as we bring more people on, it's important that they really do feel like they're hiring ARTYFACT, but they're getting the same qualities that they love from Brooke or from my co-founder Melanie. And so that's how we use it or an anticipate using it, which is helping to like hone that cultural environment then from behavior organizational behavior. Cool. Matt Artz: And you know, I heard somebody once say, and sadly, I don't remember who it was at the moment, but like in your case, but ARTYFACT, right. So two co-founders, so you're each sort of like 50% of the culture, but with your first hire and now you're sort of 33%, right. And with each hire, you sort of in Silva sense, right. Each person, I think what they're trying to say with each person, like they are changing it, they're shifting it. And of course, you know, it's helpful to sort of have some values and guiding principles that, that may help keep it on the rails. But you know, also to that end, each hire is really important because they change the culture. And so, you know, even keeping that in mind and how we bring sort of, you know, the understanding of organizational to the hiring practices is interesting. Brooke Gibbs: Absolutely. You know, I don't want to throw anyone under the bus, so hopefully this person won't see this, but I want this to get out broadly back Matt Artz: It's your, your platform go for it. Brooke Gibbs: So even just today, we were, we were talking slash we were interviewing someone essentially a informal interview as to be another independent contractor that we bring on. And I will say that is exactly what you're saying. The, when we got off the phone with this person, me and Melanie, my co-founder, we had a discussion around, wow, this person has, is extremely competent on paper. They have all the things that we would need and maybe even overqualified, maybe in some areas, but we were like those soft skills and those soft things, the personality, the life that really think about me and my personality, right? Like that is, that translates through ARTYFACT and what we, and what we do, we're me and Melanie are personal bull and we, we need to be personable because there's a direct correlation between, Hey, we want to talk to consumers and, and all of that, we, we need to be what we're gonna do in the field. Brooke Gibbs: Right? Like that's how we need to show up. And this person that we talked to just, we just didn't think it would be a good fit from a, from a cultural standpoint, right. A good fit from those soft skills. How are they showing up? Like, this person didn't laugh at all this whole, the whole time we were talking to them. And it was just like, eh, there was a, this a little bit, it was just, this person was very rigid and not kind of free. And that's just not how we work. And so, absolutely. And almost when I think about the ideal in these situations, how does those, how did that, how does that thing work? Well, I always think about Chick-fil-A and people could say what they want to say. I know Chick-fil-A from a political standpoint, there's all kinds of things, but Chick-fil-A no matter where you're at those people are nice. You know what I'm saying? Like he's a little from the 15 year olds that are working there all the way up to the whoever in every single part, in every single geography, they show up the same. So somehow they have found a way that as they bring new people in, they've been able to kind of like indoctrinate them, not in a cult kind of way more than like a, these are guiding principles and they gotten people to drink the Kool-Aid. But once again, not Nicola. Matt Artz: And that's a good example though. And so, you know, to maybe pivot from that a little bit one of the things I want to do here is always, and you've already done this a little bit, but it's sort of help others maybe figure out how to get to this point. And obviously you've provided a lot of great examples, already, very practical examples of about starting a business. But one of the last, you know, you mentioned one of the key things that always comes up here in New York and our meetups and everywhere, every everybody's always asking, this is like, how do you sell your findings? Like, what do you do? And so, you know, the more practical you can be, or the more tangible, more concrete go for it, but I'd love to hear just like how you're doing. And maybe first as a precursor to that, you mentioned like the pre-brief. So are you setting up any of that, you know, in this sort of quote unquote training of the pre-brief of what they should expect? Brooke Gibbs: Yeah. Okay. So two questions in one the, the, the pre-brief part was the second part. The first part was, how do we sell Matt Artz: Yeah. Your findings, ultimately your insights even recommendations Brooke Gibbs: Our findings. And when you say sell, I just a clarifying question before I answer you, do you mean how do I ensure that they're received in the right way? Or do you literally mean how do I package this and sell this? Matt Artz: Yeah. So probably certainly how do you communicate it? Right. How, and ideally have learned anything through that process, you know, like, have you tried to do it one way, maybe in the beginning and it wasn't working so well and have you pivoted, and now you're doing something else and what, I guess, what resonates the most with your stakeholders so that they see the value of what you've learned and hopefully then embody that to make a change. Brooke Gibbs: Yep, exactly. So I'll talk about the pre-brief first, and then I'll talk about the other, getting to the findings. Cause the pre-brief happens in the beginning and then the findings are at the end. So I'll do it like in sequential order. So one of the things I mentioned yes, is that we do a what we call a pre-brief. I don't know that other people do that or not, but we, we, that's almost part of the initial. So once we do our, our pitch, our proposal and they say, Hey, yes, we're doing this project. That's in the timeline of like, you know, it could be some people would just simplify that to say a kickoff meeting. But no, when, when we are doing field work, the day before build work starts, we are having a, it could be anywhere from two to four hour mini training, we're talking to them about we're, we're getting them, we're, we're reminding them of who we're going to be talking to and how long or whatever. Brooke Gibbs: Right. There's some logistics, but there's literally like a training portion. And I think that has come, you know, there might be hesitation when they're like, pre-brief, I don't really know what that is. Is there a need for that or whatever, but universally, once it's done, people are laughing and joking. They're having a great time. Like it also serves to create a rapport with you and the client before you're going into the field, making sure we're all on the same page, making sure you don't have a crazy person, the marketing person, ain't going to go rogue and start talking about whatever. Like it gets everybody on the same page. We all, we always have, like, we'll make it sometimes a happy hour. Right? We want to, we want to set the tone so we can have beer and wine there, a charcuterie board, right? Like we're really setting the stage and we're making this appetizing, right. Brooke Gibbs: That's part of it, but it differentiates us. So we give them little goody bags of the, for the field work. So it's like, here's some tools that you're going to need for the field. Right? All those things are creating some differentiation for ARTYFACT, but at the same time it's needed. And so we need to we're packaging up something that's needed in a way that's fun and entertaining, et cetera, fast forward, the things that have been helpful on the backend, like, okay, sharing our results or people find value, or what have you. We have started to do two things that we weren't necessarily always doing. We sometimes were stopping our project in terms of the proposal we were stopping it at, we've done the field work. We've gotten the we synthesize the data, figured out what the meaning is. We've gotten to themes. And then we are going to share that back out, right with the team and that sort of thing. Brooke Gibbs: Sometimes things stopped at that presentation where we've noticed clients find value. Additional value is in having a workshop after that, that workshop enables them. We'll share, we'll share the findings as the kickoff to that workshop. So the findings from the field work, but then we also been literally start creating. So we are immediately actioning what we learned from the field. And now we are really coming across as partners, right. To these clients. And like, Hey, we're not letting you, we're not just throwing you off to the wind. We're going to help guide you through this almost creation process for whatever they're trying to, whatever they're trying to get to the second thing. We have, I was going to talk about three things. Actually. I forget the second one, right. This moment it'll come back to me. But the other thing we're trying to do in general, and don't still, people do not steal our idea. Speaker 3: Yeah. Brooke Gibbs: But projects are very big and detailed, right? There's a lot of different aspects of one project. So I am mining existing data. I'm creating the discussion guide. I'm actually doing the field work. I'm doing the analysis I'm creating. Oh, I just thought about my second thing. That's good. I'm creating I'm doing the analysis. I'm creating a deck and then I'm sharing that out and then maybe I'm doing a workshop. Right. Well, we've started to think about is how do we sell individual pieces instead of selling the whole for certain clients? So for the bigger ones, yeah. They need the whole project. And they have that. We've noticed that from other clients, this is the part I'm not going to share because it's proprietary. I don't want people still on my idea, but there's a certain target audience that would benefit from just the pieces Speaker 3: Being sold to them. So they just need Brooke Gibbs: A discussion guide. Right. They can talk to the people themselves. They just don't know what questions to ask and how to ask them. Or they just need someone to actually tell them how to find people. Like there's, there's, there's easy ways. There's backdoor, ways of recruiting that isn't like formally recruiting. Like you can talk to people around you and in your network that bit, some criteria. Right? So those are the, we're trying to break down into brittle pieces. The third thing that we sell, sorry. Cause I remember, I, I, I remembered it was people call it like storytelling or bringing insights to life. Right? You hear all this like business darken, but essentially we have found a lot of success with we, you know, we always video record our, and so package we'll use, literally use I movie and start to splice together snippets from, you know, the, the field work together to select the consumer, tell the story. So almost we don't have to talk at all the, you know, well, if we find the themes ahead of time, and then we find these clips and we put them together and then it happens, it's almost like a video reel. The consumers are telling that story for us. And we have found that that has created a lot about you now. Caveat, that's a lot of work sometimes. So maybe, maybe that's outsourced, but it's value added for sure. Matt Artz: Yeah. No, very cool idea to hear it in their own words is that I'm sure. Very powerful for your, for your stakeholders. Yeah. Great. And so, yeah, that was real practical. Thanks. And then I guess, you know, some, maybe the last questions I have along the same theme of sort of sharing with everybody else now, do you have maybe any thoughts because we kind of went the opposite way, right? We were in business, went back. So do you have any thoughts on whether people should go straight through to get maybe an anthropology degree or any thoughts on your experience of having worked first and then going back, you know, anything you learned there? Brooke Gibbs: Yeah. I'm very biased. And so I'm just putting it out that, and I tell people, not just people who are aspiring to be, you know, anthropologists are getting their masters in that RPAC. I say that for any field in any industry, I think there is something to pausing, getting real world work experience and then going back and getting whatever it is, your MBA or, you know, your master's in anthropology, your master's in whatever it might be. Here's why once again, I'm biased. So I just have the caveat that, but I will say that in my program and you probably feel the same way, Matt, like all these, this, you got to do discussion boards, you have to like write these papers. You have to do all this stuff. And I had so much more to draw from because I had real world work professional experiences. Brooke Gibbs: And so therefore it made my educational journey. I could, I could hone it in more and fine tune it more. Cause it's like, okay, what gaps do I have? What do I already know? And so it's like I could morph it in that way. The second thing is the reason why is I believe that when you have real-world work experience, when you decide to go get your masters, it's more it's or master's or PhD, whatever, it doesn't matter. You, you you have a better sense of what you're going for. And you know, you usually, you're more intentional about saying this is exactly what I'm trying to get, the kind of degree I'm getting and why and how I'm going to use it. Sometimes when you go straight through you think your 22 year old self thinks they know what they want to do, but it's not until you sometimes get that work experience. And you're like, dang, I don't even like this. I like to do it. And you may not. And so now I'm starting, I'm got my master's in this thing. And I went through and I'm like, I don't even want to do this anymore. So that's the other thing that having, getting work experience enables. Matt Artz: Yeah. And I can, yeah, I can actually share two two real-world examples that backup your two points. So my case, I got my MBA, right. I went straight through and there wasn't much I could contribute to the program. There wasn't much I could bring in, in terms of outside examples. When I went back to the anthropology program, I felt that I had many more to bring, but also I got my MBA in finance and I realized I didn't want to work in finance. I mean, I kind of did it cause you like, you know, you need to understand basic finance, but I definitely realized that in the process of that MBA, that I did not want to work full time in finance. Right. And so, yeah, I I'm on your side of the argument. Brooke Gibbs: Yeah. But just cause, you know, we gotta be well-rounded for people who have not have to, but choose to do that first. There's some practical reasons why people choose to do that. Like, Oh, I can tack it on. And it's a three-year instead of four years, or I don't know, do you can save some time and, or save money, do what you do. It's just that if, if those things aren't a factor, you know, really think about taking a moment pausing and going to work. Matt Artz: Yeah. That's great feedback. And so maybe the last question on that theme here is, you know, I, you know, in tech we oftentimes we will want, you would recommend to somebody that they show up with a portfolio because we're, you know, we're doing research building products and it sort of naturally lends itself. And it's kind of sort of expected, not, not saying every company expects a portfolio, but it's common. I'm not sure if it's common in the market research world. Like if somebody was going to work in a corporation. And so maybe this is relevant, maybe it's not, but I guess what would you recommend people to do to sort of position themselves, to apply for jobs? Even if, if they're not saying they're going to start their own company, but if they want to apply for a role you know, we had at UNT, we had our applied projects, which can kind of lend themselves to that. If you pick the right project, you know, if you pick something that aligns with your goals, but for maybe people who aren't don't have that opportunity to have an applied project, any thoughts on like what somebody could do if they're in school now, or even recently graduated sort of stuck to align themselves to apply to some kind of market research role. Brooke Gibbs: Yeah. So there are people everywhere looking for help. And so if you're currently in the, in a program, right, and you want to position your S you you're you're not yet about to graduate, but you're trying to, you're thinking ahead and you're trying to position yourself. Well, I say like put yourself out there on LinkedIn, like any networking site, what have you put that at the top? Like, I've seen people very specifically put up like seeking some type of position and you could say internship, what have you like something where it's implied that you're not looking for anything full-time or whatever, but you're just trying to get experienced, like the more experience, the better, the other thing, I don't know, I was like really a lot of what's that word called? I got a lot of knowledge from reading and from going to like conferences and just being known. Brooke Gibbs: Right. So it's like, would they say, when you're trying to find a job, like it's not about it's as much who, you know, was whatever they say. I'm like forgetting all these cliches and sayings today, but if you, but definitely I encourage people to, to re literature, get to know the authors. These are regular people, like email authors, right? Like get, expand your network. Like maybe they have advice, but then also go to conferences, make your name and face known in this world. Because what I always want to talk about these, I was, I had some advice for people, some additional advice I haven't said, but what I've learned is that all this stuff, this is a small world like this anthropology feel. And especially if you're an applied anthropologist, it is a very small world and things definitely come full circle. And so connections now, you don't know like how they may show up later. So the more that you can just be a familiar face and or name it for sure will help you. I have numerous examples of that, that it makes no sense. Like I was like, I just got, so can I, can I give to my own horn for a second? Okay. I just got an award last Friday. Brooke Gibbs: Thank you. I actually got the award from UNT and it was alumni making a difference award. Right. And so I was selected for this. And then I, they want me to give this speech at this at one of the, some applied anthropology expo that's upcoming in March. And also it came with like a monetary reward when I got it. I was like, Oh, I didn't even know I was on people's radar. And I'm exaggerating a bit like I, you know, I like back in October, I lectured, I, I did like a little talk for one of the anthropology at UNT. And then over the year, since we've graduated, I've done things here and there. But I also stay top of mind because like I use the alumni, like we have, you know, we had like a little listserv. And so I use that to like, try to find people or reach back out. Brooke Gibbs: And so that's just a little tidbit of people are like, Oh, she, Oh, she's looking for somebody for XYZ. Oh, she has this company. Like, it is kind of keeps me top of mind. I also went to kind of cop. I also went to conferences early on, even while still at P and G. And so that just kept me top of mind. And I feel like that is for sure, going to help you later, as you're trying to find that job, people will be like, once people know, cause I'm actually looking for someone right now on anthropologists who fits our cultural attitudes, behaviors. And so if I had other people, the person I did talk to was a person that was top of mind for me. But if I had some more of those people, you know, that were top of mine, I would very quickly be like, Oh yeah, I would hit them up versus them trying to, trying to find me. Matt Artz: Yeah. Cool. Well, if there's somebody you want me to post, when I do release this, you know, like if there's a link to any kind of chop posting, just let me know. So that's great. And did you say, well, congratulations again, that's really wonderful. That's really cool to hear. Did you, have you mentioned that you had some other advice that you read that you didn't mention, you want to share that? Brooke Gibbs: So one thing so more, so this will probably end up just being like a summary sense. I think I probably threw out this hour talk. I've mentioned splattering, some things here and there. Number one, I would say Ari said like people, the word anthropology right now is sexy and it's probably been sexy for the last few years. And so use that as a tool, use that to your advantage and don't use it as like a, Oh, people don't know what I'm doing and you know, people don't understand anthropology. No, like never let that be in your head. It's always a tool. Number one, the second one is to use your, this is really the story I was saying. Really use your alumni network, make sure you're keeping in touch with what your teachers, your, your, your old professors or whatever, whoever your committee chair was like, make sure they know what you are, what you're doing. Brooke Gibbs: If you're a current student. And if you've already been in this world, reach back out now, you know what I mean? Like make sure you make sure you are keeping a strong connection because you invested in this place. Right? I mean, then you got something from it, but there's ongoing opportunities. Like they want alumni to do things. So and they want to uplift, you know, it looks good for them. If their alumni are out here in the world doing great things. And so they're going to try to promote you in whatever way that they can. And so make, you're continuing, continuing to keep strong connections with those, those, the, the, the program and the actual professors. And then the third thing, and I kind of do this. Sometimes it just kind of falls in my lap. And then sometimes I do this proactively. So are you, I use LinkedIn as a way to, there's not a gazillion anthropologists in the world. Brooke Gibbs: So sometimes what I do is do a search. So I'll be like anthropology, Atlanta, right? So it's like someone who's put there because I'm in Atlanta, by the way for the audience. And so some people, you know, they'll put their location down, obviously wherever their hometown is, but then somewhere in the their description, they'll use that word anthropology. And so it'll come up and I'll be like, Oh, there's this anthropologist here in Atlanta. And so I've, I've literally done physical things where I'm like met up in person with people that I hadn't I've literally just met him on LinkedIn, met up for coffee with them. And we like shared war stories. And, you know, sometimes in the moment nothing comes from that. And then other times that has happened, we didn't meet up in person. We only like had conversation over the phone, but that has led to multiple projects because they were like, Oh, this one particular person, she was like, actually, this is so timely. I'm getting away from freelance and consulting and moving into a full-time position. And so all my old clients need someone I'm going to just refer them to you. That's okay. That's opportunistic. Right. And so that's the third thing of like, reach out at the anthropology community is kind, we're good people, you know I think there's a certain personality trait that actually makes you want to be in this field, use that to your advantage. And cause people want to help out one another. Matt Artz: Yeah. Yeah. Beautifully said that's great. And you know, also you mentioned like conferences and things. I would also throw out and I know you and I talked about this little in New York, but meetups, right. It doesn't have to be like academic conferences, but just local meetups. There's a ton of opportunity. Brooke Gibbs: Absolutely. And I have a bias because I love meetup.com. So plug for that plug for meetup, even though I'm not getting any type of check, but I absolutely agree. In fact there's with, COVID the, one of the positive things about COVID is now that everything has become virtual, it has enabled meetups that were in one location to be way more assessable. So even Matt, you know, the meetup that you do remember when we, we talked about when we were in New York together 14 months ago or whatever it was, it was very much so like yeah. So if you happen to be in New York at the next meetup, like let me know, you know, and I was like, yeah, let's do it. Right. And then maybe like the next month COVID hit. But then I was able last month to actually join your meetup because you had it virtually. And that was like, that kind of made my day. I was like super energized after like being on this, on the zoom with all these kind of like-minded people, but in the best, best way. Right. So absolutely thumbs up to meet up. Matt Artz: Yeah. Great. And well, for your knowledge, you know, we'll be having another one. I think it should be probably the end of March. So I'll let you know all that will be posted on meetup as well, so. Cool, great. Well that was all wonderful stuff. Thanks for sharing all that. I guess the last things is, you know, do you want to plug anything? Do you want to let people know where they can find you? Anything you want is fair game? Brooke Gibbs: Absolutely. So this is my time. It's like at the end of hot ones, when have you guys, there's a show on Brooke Gibbs: I know, I know I'm all, this is how my brain works. It's a show on YouTube and they do all this question enhancer. And then at the end, they are, they're able to plug their stuff. So you guys know that I own the company ARTYFACT. And so our website is ARTYFACT co.com. So let me spell that for you. It's artyfactco.com. And so that's where you can go and find out more about us also at the bottom of that, of the the landing page is an area where you can fill out your information if you want to, if you have a project idea and want to know more about how we can partner and help, we're also on Instagram and it's the same thing, ARTYFACT co so is our handle. And so you can find us there. Brooke Gibbs: I would say in general, we, no project is too big or small. What we would, what we always do is find the right solution for you, right? So if you have something where it's just as a part of a project, or you have a whole large project, we're going to find the right solution for you. And we are very hands-on and we want to partner with you. So we want to take the load off that's the whole entire point of what we do as well. So that is that nothing else right now to plug, except for look out for me. My name is Brooklyn is award-winning anthropologist, founder of ARTYFACT. Matt Artz: Congratulations. Again, it's good to see you again. We it's nice to sync up once in awhile. You know, ever since that first time we went to the rodeo in Fort worth, Brooke Gibbs: That wasn't the best modifier, but what's funny is I actually remember the, our dinner before the rodeo. Right. I think we had like, was it like the beers with the margarita? Like in it, you remember? Matt Artz: Yeah. I don't remember what it's called, but yeah, that was funny. Brooke Gibbs: It was amazing. And then yes, I rodeo very fitting for us to be in Texas. Yeah. Matt Artz: Well, Brooke, thanks very much. It was great talking to you. Please note this transcript is an automated transcription and may have some errors.