SPECIAL: Kevin Rudd "Meeting Murdoch is like meeting Gollum" - GMPOOG - 01

A Rational Fear

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This is A Rational Fear's new monthly podcast.

It’s a long-form conversation with leaders in climate justice from around the world.

So… I’m thrilled to give you the first episode of the Greatest Moral Podcast Of Our Generation.

Up first is the bloke who coined the phrase “greatest moral problem of our generation”, Kevin Rudd.

We’re a couple of generations of PMs past that speech, and sadly the climate emergency still holds the title.

Fellow Bertha Fellow, Linh Do, and I do a wrap of the month’s climate news, then we get to the interview.

Kevin and I speak about climate change policy, good, bad, future, past and present. We also go deep on Rupert Murdoch, NBN, and media regulation. Kevin also has some great advice for leaders who want to work in the climate space.

The Patreon version of this episode also has a conversation about off-shore detention and Kevin’s Manus Island solution.

If you’re a follower of #Auspol or just want to understand where we’re at with climate policy in Australia, this is a super interesting interview.

Cheers,

Dan Ilic

Credits:

Host: Dan Ilic

Co-host: Linh Do

Post production: Jacob Round

Research: Kara Schlegl

Voice Over: Robbie McGregor

Artwork: Lauren Geaney

Patreon:

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If you enjoy the podcast, chip in with Patreon. We’re at about 65.2% of covering the costs of making the show each week. Every little bit helps. You get to watch the live recording of the show on Thursday nights at 8pm, and access our Discord community – it’s kind of like a chat room where we bounce ideas around for the writing of the show throughout the week.

Thanks:

Big thanks to The Bertha Foundation, our Patreon Supporters and RODE Mics.

TRANSCRIPT FROM OTTER.AI

Kevin Rudd 0:00

I'm getting a Remington manual typewriter and cigars and load Jamaica rum. I'm taking lessons a TAFE course in bullfighting despite global warming, a rational fear is adding a little more hot air with long form discussions with climate leaders. Good.

This is called Don't be fried the heat waves and drought greatest mass extinction Morrow we're facing a manmade disaster podcast, climate criminals

shiana ration

Unknown Speaker 0:38

all of this with global warming and a lot of it's a hoax book right, a small podcast about generation.

Unknown Speaker 0:46

For short,

Dan Ilic 0:47

yes, welcome to the first gumpert brought to you by irrational fear. I'm Daniel H and co hosting up the top is Linda Gatlin.

Linh Do 0:55

JOHN, how are you

Dan Ilic 0:56

now? Good dad. You're the first person to hear the new intro. What do you think? Have a

Linh Do 1:00

no pressure right greatest more podcast of our time none whatsoever. I'm ready to rock and roll.

Dan Ilic 1:06

I actually it's actually greatest moral podcast of our generation. I myself have been calling of our time for so long. But I have went back to check the original source text and it was generation.

Linh Do 1:19

Well as a millennial, my generation i thought was the only one that mattered. So time generation say same for me, it doesn't matter.

Dan Ilic 1:27

So the second Monday of each month, we'll be bringing you long form conversations with climate leaders from all around Australia and the world. Do you want us to talk to Lynn? I mean,

Linh Do 1:35

it feels like such an obvious pick to say Greta tune Berg, but I'm also super keen to hear about those people that have made the decision to say leave their jobs in the oil and gas industry. Like I think that is a real sort of moral and ethical dilemma.

Dan Ilic 1:49

Yeah, I can imagine if I was earning six figures in the oil and gas industry, I don't think I'd have to take a second before leaving those. Now Lynne and I are going to be talking about three stories. about climate change that piqued your interest this month. Let's start off with yulian what some what's kind of caught your eye this month?

Linh Do 2:06

Well, one of the things that's definitely caught my eyes, it's just all the temperature sort of record setting scenarios that are happening. I got to go to Antarctica last year and remember it being over 10 degrees when I was there, we just just felt like wild for the icy wild west did this last month we've seen la record its hottest day ever. clocking in at close to 49 degrees Celsius, which, for me feels like Mad Max has returned.

Dan Ilic 2:33

Well, it's funny to say Mad Max at a place called stunt ranch in the Santa Monica Mountains. It got up to 50 degrees Celsius 122 degrees Fahrenheit, which is crazy. I mean, it I mean, you wouldn't even have to pretend it was hot there like it was there. I think the problem with them those kinds of temperatures in LA there are so many celebrities who can't go outside in case their faces melt away. I think that's probably the biggest problem for those people. There.

Linh Do 3:00

makeup and hot weather just like things that are growing together.

Dan Ilic 3:04

One other interesting one I saw this week that I thought was really fascinating was to do with wind farms. Now, Lynn, what are some of the most common reasons why people fight against wind turbines in their neighborhood?

Unknown Speaker 3:18

Ah,

Linh Do 3:19

because it's ugly. It's either that they're super ugly or it's from an original twitcher. That is to say a bird watcher because they're killing all the birds. Yeah,

Dan Ilic 3:27

that's right. That's right bird strikes is a big deal with with wind farms. Donald Trump was right on wind farms when it comes to bird strikes. Birds get whacked pretty fast. The blades go past at about 240 kilometers an hour but some very clever Norwegian scientists have worked out that by painting just one of the blades black on a wind turbine they can cut bird strikes down by 70% 70%.

Linh Do 3:54

so impressive and so cool that the other two turbines are still why because you know that helps reflect the heat and absorption. Okay.

Dan Ilic 4:02

Yes, that's right. Well, what turbine lives matter? Is that something that's probably not saying don't worry about though

Linh Do 4:08

I think it's all turbines matter, otter matter, because renewable energy is the future

Dan Ilic 4:13

or turbines better. That's correct. And Lynn, The Kids Are All Right.

Linh Do 4:18

Well, I feel like they're doing a bit better than my millennial generation that I just talked about before. We also saw this last month a really cool sort of instance of first ever in Australia where a class action has been filed by some teenagers against the Australian Government hoping to put an injunction into an extension to

Dan Ilic 4:37

coal mine. That's incredible. What is the chance that they can prevent this coal mine which I think they're talking about the Whitehaven coal mine in Canada, trying to get it off the minister's desk what's the chance I can get that injunction going?

Linh Do 4:50

I mean, it feels like an impossible and audacious task but we've seen really cool examples in the US and in like the Netherlands where young people, older people have been able to governments to court over climate change and have actually prevented coal mines from opening

Kevin Rudd 5:05

to listening to the greatest moral podcast about generation.

Dan Ilic 5:12

Now to the interview, the first guest on the greatest moral podcast of our generation is former prime minister Kevin Rudd, who wants cold climate change, the greatest moral problem of our generation. It was a pretty interesting conversation about where we are and where we should be going in terms of climate change, and how we got here, and how hard it is to make big things happen in Parliament. There's also quite a bit of Murdoch bashing In this episode, I think he compares, meaning rupert murdoch to Gollum, so definitely worth listening out for. For me as a young person interested in politics, the Kevin oh seven election was remarkable, as it offered quite a stark contrast to john Howard. And he was kind of Kevin Rudd was kind of the first leader of a party to have a really aggressive approach to climate action. And I don't think anyone has dead since

Linh Do 6:00

I mean, I feel people have did and then ever has happened and people have again become really terrified of this irrational, slash, sometimes rational fear. And Kay Rob was actually one of the first politicians that I ever got to vote, not obviously directly for their parliamentary system. But when I came of age and got to, like go to the ballot for the first time, so it was exciting to actually have someone talk about climate change. And then, well, you know, history happened.

Dan Ilic 6:26

And now there are people coming up who are doing class actions who've never even heard of Kevin Rudd.

Linh Do 6:31

Yep. And they get to probably two election cycles.

Dan Ilic 6:34

Well, you know, something here is Kevin Rudd. God is it

Kevin Rudd 6:39

today, good to be with you, Kevin. Oh, seven. I'm gearing up for Kevin 27.

Dan Ilic 6:44

The return the return,

Kevin Rudd 6:47

finally met Kevin 37. So by which stage I would only be at I think

Dan Ilic 6:52

I look if it's Joe Biden, it's good enough for you?

Kevin Rudd 6:54

Well, I'm about to say I mean, I've just been my prime by then.

Dan Ilic 6:58

Now, Kevin to the verify your identity because it's 2020. And technology is so good these days and people listening to the podcast could think, you know, actually talking to a bot from Russia here. I've got 11 questions, just to verify your identity. And if you get eight of them correct, we can continue on with the interview. Not the problem. Great. Here we go. First question. True or false. Kevin Rudd once worked as a house cleaner for Laurie Oakes?

Kevin Rudd 7:25

Absolutely through

Dan Ilic 7:27

Congress, which coalition minister did Kevin Rudd once compared to being caught between a hound and a hydrant on greenhouse gas?

Kevin Rudd 7:36

That would have been

Unknown Speaker 7:40

sort of Howard or Abbott

Dan Ilic 7:43

Do you need a clue as to clue you were you were his counterpart when you Shadow Minister for Foreign Oh,

Kevin Rudd 7:52

okay. So it would have been doubling down on Kevin rods favorite swear words Ah, If

Dan Ilic 8:05

true or false fair shake of the source bottle was made up by Kevin Rudd.

Kevin Rudd 8:10

False who was a preexisting Queensland expression which I simply adapted for national political purposes.

Dan Ilic 8:18

According to AV essays Australia talks program, what percentage of Australians think that climate change is real and what real action

Kevin Rudd 8:27

84%

Dan Ilic 8:28

Oh, and what percentage of Australians think that politicians are out of touch with real Australians on climate change?

Kevin Rudd 8:35

8.4%

Dan Ilic 8:37

actually, it's 84% the same amount. Now Kevin on a scale of one to 10 how responsible is Kevin rod for that 84%

Kevin Rudd 8:51

if one is on not responsible for anything, and 10 is on totally responsible for Everything I'd give myself of probably about a three

Dan Ilic 9:06

I actually actually have written here I would have accepted three to six so you're on the lower end of the scale well then you got that correct. Finished.

Kevin Rudd 9:13

Do I do the mandatory renewable energy target I did try twice to legislate the carbon price will give me in houses with solar panels.

Dan Ilic 9:23

What else am I supposed to do in three years guys? Finish this sentence Kevin Rudd once supported clean coal but now thinks there is a problem it's called finish this sentence Kevin Rudd once back carbon capture and storage that now thinks

Kevin Rudd 9:40

carbon capture and storage the four associated technologies have lived yet to be fully proven.

Dan Ilic 9:48

If Kevin Rudd could have his time again he would rename the resource super profits tax what

Kevin Rudd 9:54

the screw you Rio Tex.

Dan Ilic 9:57

I also would have accepted the Aussie dividend The HSV grant and the birthright money pit

Kevin Rudd 10:03

would have accepted the screw urea effects. But it's a blast indigenous cave sides that Rio

Dan Ilic 10:09

that Rio, Rio Tinto, of course. Now final question to verify your identity Kevin Rudd without using the word brown or green, Australia has lost a decade of climate action because

Unknown Speaker 10:23

because

Kevin Rudd 10:29

Abba always put politics above policy and found some willing accomplices on the way through. Now, they just do have different coloration.

Dan Ilic 10:45

The maps here, yes, I can verify that we are indeed talking with Prime Minister Kevin Rudd. Thank you, Kevin. That was very nice of you.

Kevin Rudd 10:55

I am not a bot.

Dan Ilic 10:57

Not about not about you have a very better world. accent the first kind of way to kick off this This podcast is all about people who have been at the front of climate action and trying to implement climate action. I kinda want to take you back to the first day of the launch. Jessica Ross tweeted this on New Year's Eve 2019 2020 earlier this year, all of Australia was pretty much on fire and she tweeted is now the right time to share that when we moved into the lodge in 2007. The sole remaining disk in the DVD player was the great global warming swindle. Happy New Year. Do you remember that memory Did you watch it as a family?

Kevin Rudd 11:38

Though we just sort of had a jaw dropping moment as we discovered this thing. Whether that was the last thing that the the seal regime played or whether it was just a sticker brought up your nose? I'm not quite sure. Can you think it was telling the truth?

Dan Ilic 11:54

Can you remember saying it and what we think what did you think first thing when you when you saw that? disk in the display.

Kevin Rudd 12:03

Well, I think I thought about john Winston, you know what a waste is a guy who was in office for 12 years and purely within a conservative political paradigm. He couldn't should have seen it in his own political self interest to reach over and to take this ground from us. But he couldn't sum it up. Of course, at the last minute, you know, that PDF shergold then hit a prime minister's department convinced him to go to the oh seven election with an emissions trading scheme policy. But he taught wasn't in NAB. It certainly wasn't in it even though avid back to down at the time, but I think it is fairly to grasp its its capacity to sustain his own Prime Ministership. Instead, I was puzzled about your file against a man for who he is, and he Dig conservative belief structure, but I'm trying to operate within the grain of his own political survival sort of strategy, which is to say, Hmm, if I could do that I would broaden my tent and hold on for longer and keep bloody Castello away for another 46 years.

Dan Ilic 13:17

Do you ever, ever thinks how things might have played out differently had Castello rolled? power to that point?

Kevin Rudd 13:26

I've never been an alternative history guy, which is what if, what if, what if, what if life is complicated enough when you just do do do rather than have a whole bunch of you know, post facto reflections on what could have been? So you, you dealt the cards, you play with the cards that you dealt with, you make the best decisions possible and you played as hard as you can to get the results that you need. Sometimes it works, and sometimes you fall screaming under your face.

Dan Ilic 13:58

I'm gonna take you back to Your maiden speech in dynamite is a great line in there that I want to share to the audience. It says, I also believe the government should not turn in on themselves, but instead have a fundamental responsibility to pursue the public code internationally in the promotion of regional and global security, democracy and economic development and the protection of the planet. How do you feel about that statement now? And was it hard to live up to those ideals in your time in office?

Kevin Rudd 14:28

I've always had a view that, you know, politics has got to be about vision. And unless you are painting the vision, which that statement does, and you just parodied in my earlier remarks, that climate change the greatest moral challenge of our generation, unless you're actually putting that up there as the goalpost, you're never going to get there. Seriously. So if it's all about one little bit of incremental change after another, and everyone uncertain about what the end point is, well, guess what? Progress is going to be pretty marginal. So I have no problems with that the alternative is the nation has no vision it has no mission statement as a result, we just drift on an all the lead drift into oblivion include, including on climate,

Dan Ilic 15:15

what is the future of climate action for Australia?

Unknown Speaker 15:19

I think

Kevin Rudd 15:22

number one is to deliver real political change to make it happen. And I hate to say this, but the current mob don't have it within their DNA to do it. And it's just the truth. If I thought that they could have done this Damascus road on this stuff, I wouldn't hold this view. So this mob have to have a wooden stake, whacked through their heart in terms of what is then done by way of substantive action My view for what it's worth is a, we need to move north further with the mandatory renewable energy target beyond 20. When I brought that in, they thought it was impossible, because then renewables contribution to total electricity supply was 4%. And it's now 20%. Legislation matters. So go north of that. Secondly, on the carbon price, I've always supported a floating carbon price to bring disciplines into the show. Thirdly, we'll be on the receiving end and we should also be on the exporting end of carbon tariffs. That is if there are freeloaders in the system internationally, and something the Morison government haven't worked out. Is there going to have carbon tariffs put on us by the Europeans? I think definitely And under Biden administration, probably possibly the Americans. And so that should be a third part of the the armory. And the fourth, of course, is to have genuinely ambitious set of national targets for us within the framework of the Paris treaty, Paris Agreement.

Dan Ilic 17:18

The era T is a bit of legislation that you help foster through. And it's one of the remaining bits of climate legislation that is quite effective. How was that ever at risk of disappearing? You know, when? In your time Did you ever see it as a vulnerable mechanism?

Kevin Rudd 17:40

Yeah, I mean, the organized lobby against us when we brought in the emrich was huge. You may recall the Senate vote was actually pretty tight. When you say we facilitated through or fostered it through that meant getting the numbers and it was hard. It was tough. Politics is a rough whole business for me and trying to do the right thing. And then the Tories on many occasions substance that tried to get it, tried to reduce it, tried to emasculate it and so it's always been under attack from various parts of the of the fossil fuel lobby in this country. So I think it's it's great as mortal danger was firstly, getting the numbers to get through because it was a parallel debate to the cprs. And the numbers would tight in both cases. And secondly, it came under again its second greatest threat in 20 1314 when Conan the Barbarian took over, aka Tony Abbott and and wanted to kill it. But again, he couldn't Marshal the numbers in the Senate. By the way, it's the only workhorse on climate change in this country. Everything else is sort of stuff and nonsense. But the real thing that's worked, I don't know direct

Dan Ilic 18:54

action in the green army. That's pretty fantastic. He exhausts

Kevin Rudd 18:57

the The The truth is, here we are in 2021 is working the mandatory renewable energy target. Plus if you like, you know, 20% of the housing stock getting subsidized solar panels, our work on on the installation of homes, frankly, despite the difficulties with that program, reduced energy demand, so demand side management solar panels in terms of the subsidies we put in there, but most critically, the driving factor was was the medic renewable energy target.

Dan Ilic 19:37

We kind of hear hear about the fossil fuel lobbyists and the lobbying that goes on in Parliament for you. How did that manifest on a daily basis? What does it actually look like when we hear you know, the fossil fuel lobby is is in force and

Kevin Rudd 19:51

what it looks like is for example, when I was in Copenhagen, and and hadn't been to bed for two or three days and again, Heading the Copenhagen Accord, which, frankly, was the draft of what became the Paris Agreement, the Copenhagen Accord of 2009 became the Paris agreement of 2015. That's the reality because that's when we crossed the two degrees centigrade threshold through sheer you know, negotiating effort. So what does the carbon lobby look like? The carbon lobby looks like them being on the phone, to the likes of the Baba boys in the Labour Party, some of the factional chieftains from the right, who then get on the phone to the prime minister and say, mate, this is a disaster mate, you got to kill this maid you got to kill carbon pricing altogether, because Abbott's on the march and the industry is going nuts. That's otherwise called Mark arbib. And that's certainly the position I picked up from. Let's call it the the fringe dwellers of the Labour Party in the labor movement, who've always been pretty solid To the political and lobbying pressure of the carbon lobby

Dan Ilic 21:04

for you to push back on those folks, what does that look like from your perspective? Like how do you put your foot on the ground and push back upon those in your party who want to want to tear down what is really important, groundbreaking

Kevin Rudd 21:20

legislation, my first response to our bid, which is probably why I lost him in terms of the future, the parliamentary leadership of the Labour Party, and therefore the Prime Ministership was when I just told him to bugger off. I remember this conversation very clearly just told him to get lost. Could you use

Dan Ilic 21:35

the exact language?

Kevin Rudd 21:37

It started not with B. But I think it started with a letter several along in the alphabet from the four extra letters. And and I said, this is what we're committed to doing. We're going to do it. And then the range of political arguments so they throw against just why you can't do it. And then the second one, which was much harder was when Julia Gillard came in the office into sorry, Swami kirribilli in January and said, there's no way that I can support a double the solution based on the carbon pollution reduction scheme, the cprs, having by that stage been rejected by the Senate twice. And so I thought, well, that's interesting. And then third wave was when she and Wayne Swan teamed up to say that we had to, they wanted to abolish the cprs altogether. And I said no, because we can't get through the Senate. We'll defer it for two years. That was a decision that have been subsequently was leaked against me.

Dan Ilic 22:45

It's been said that that has been that decision was that you kicked it down the line and you know, really kicked into the grass as a low priority.

Kevin Rudd 22:53

Here is the reality is we couldn't get it through the Senate. So I deferred it two years from 2010 to 20 1213 from memory There was a reason because it was going to enter into the new Kyoto commitment period. So that's why we I did that. But that was my compromise position against the internal effectiveness of the carbon lobby, working on the likes of Gilad and Swan and RB have been the bubble boys who ultimately engineered the coup who wanted to kill it all together. And I remember those conversations very clearly.

Dan Ilic 23:22

It feels like probably the last 30 years that every leadership decision has almost been at the wheel of the fossil fuel industry. Is that an unfair statement to kind of make?

Kevin Rudd 23:38

Not really, I mean, I actually took them on on two fronts. One was the carbon price where I was defeated. And I took them on again on the results super profits tax, Emma's again defeated so the On both those scores, yes, they had the final cyber, they had a huge fight on the way through.

Dan Ilic 24:05

But do you think do you do you think that they are ultimately responsible for you being pulled out of office in the first place?

Kevin Rudd 24:13

I think they're one of the contributing lobbies. I mean, these things are never neat. You got a cocktail of Shakespearean political ambition, people who just want to get promoted, become Prime Minister and get a bigger ministerial job and a bigger kind of bigger briefcase, you get a gigantic briefcase when you become Prime Minister.

Dan Ilic 24:29

And now you don't actually use the ministers man is the prime minister. That's right. It's got super 10 top

Kevin Rudd 24:37

jumbo size briefcase on the side has very important person. Yeah, right. So anyway, as you know, political ambition is writ large. So that's there. Everyone's ambitious in politics. Me too, can say that. You know, I'm sort of spring burden on these questions. But in case of knocking off the first time Prime Minister has he got individual political ambition, Gilad wanted to be in charge was prepared to throw anything and everything at it. Secondly, you've then got the Murdoch media who wanted to kill us by this stage, because we departed from what they would describe as an acceptable Blairite script. We're rolling out the National Broadband Network, we were determined to act on climate change. And the link between the carbon lobby in the big results companies in the Murdoch media is acute. Then thirdly, underpinning that you've got them the the big fossil fuel companies themselves.

Dan Ilic 25:33

At the time, I remember the cocktail hours in New York in 2010. And I was glued to my browser. at one o'clock in the morning reading what was happening and just completely shocked as to what was going on at the time. I seem to remember that the argument from those in labor that wanted to get rid of you was that you were impossible to work with where you impossible to work with.

Kevin Rudd 26:00

That's just a bullshit argument was a post facto construction. I mean, real it's really interesting is that there was an academic of the dime. And his name was Patrick Whelan, who was compiling a book on the operating style of the Rudd government. So we'd gone round and interviewed all these guys and girls, all anonymously, by the way, and they all gave copious accounts of how well the cabinet process was working, what a good Chair of cabinet was, etc. So they contemporaneous accounts actually don't lend themselves to that view. And you can understand that when people have executed a bloody first term political coup against the democratically elected Prime Minister, that they're going to search around for some sort of other excuse. Look, it was ambition, political ambition, they wanted my job. And the case of the factions they want me out of the road because I couldn't abide the factions of the Labour Party because they kept trying to stand over people on various policy questions and personal appointments so therefore you can you embed a narrative in if I was so bad to work for then when I came back as prime minister Why did practically all the staff I had working for me first time around, come back and work from the second time round? I mean, if it was all that bad I don't quite understand that.

Dan Ilic 27:25

You must have good snacks. You must have good snacks.

Kevin Rudd 27:29

But even even detractors like Simon crane would say that it was very good cheer of cabinet everyone gonna say we did things methodically, etc. So look, just understand that in politics, people are always going to invent their alibi after the event, and this was one of the alibis invented and you'll notice it's kind of drifted away, they don't talk about it. Any anymore. And if you go to if you're really interested in this subject, and your listeners are the autobiography I wrote called the pm years, it actually kind of deconstructs all of this in some considerable detail 1400 footnotes for you and your nerdy listeners.

Dan Ilic 28:11

very thorough. Kevin, very far have you? Do you think when you were talking about a plan for 20, keeping the air at having a price on carbon? Do you think it'll ever be possible to get price and emissions ever again in Australia?

Kevin Rudd 28:29

I hope so. That's certainly what I work towards, because it's part of the armory is the total armory, but it's part of the armory. You see, can what's the end point here and the end point is to bring down greenhouse gas emissions to the extent necessary that we don't have global temperature increases beyond 1.5. We're not on track for that, you know, the mathematics if we did, everything we agreed to in Paris would get one third of that distance, not, not the and that's absent the next commitment period under Paris, let alone People actually doing that which they commit to. So to get to that end point, what can you do a on the energy supply side, you transfer out of fossil fuels into renewables. B, you can do that by legislation as we did through the mandatory nubile energy target. You can also do it by making carbon that much more expensive to use. And there's a third way you can do it, which is where Obama got to the end, which is that you bring in a bunch of regulatory measures to screw down on the industry itself, other than through a carbon price. So I would strongly say to the the carbon lobby, be careful what you do, if you don't want to carbon price, and you can be regulated out of existence. Be very careful.

Dan Ilic 29:50

It's pretty interesting to kind of say machinations right now. A lot of people are talking about this election in the US as probably If Trump gets back in will be the death knell for any kind of global negotiation on climate. Do you think if Trump does get in that, that climate action, meaningful climate action is over on a global scale?

Kevin Rudd 30:16

No, because, I mean, on climate, Trump, you know, like Abbott is kind of the Antichrist. That's just the truth of it. But guess what, enough major corporations in the world have now become the object of shareholder action or action on the part of their finances. And so if you're out there with a pension fund at the moment, and courtesy of previous labour, governments national superannuation policy, you all are, look at where they're investing and apply pressure. It's having an effect. It's having an effect through the annual general meeting. shareholder lobbies, etc. So, therefore, we should not despair. If Conan the Barbarian cousin gets reelected in the United States, it will be retro again, but action by state governments, municipal governments, but frankly primarily shareholder action through not financing these projects for the future

Dan Ilic 31:26

is critical. You talk about other governments and in Australia in particular, why is this such a gap between what's happening on a federal level with climate action and the states the states kind of seem to be on the front foot with climate action and really taking it seriously. All the states are dedicated to net zero by 2050. What is that? What is that chasm? And, and why does it exist?

Kevin Rudd 31:56

I think it's because of the power of the car. lobby federally, and it's just been more deeply entrenched. They concentrate their resources. Remember, just on a related matter when we brought in the results of super profits tax, the amount of money which Rio and bhp threw at that one, as a campaign, we're looking at a worchester, around about a 90 or 100 million dollars, that buys a truckload of advertising. And I'm talking about a decade ago. So, therefore, you put them together plus then their national mouthpiece, the Murdoch media. You got paid advertising from the carbon lobby, directly or indirectly. And then you've got the Murdoch media who have always been their mouthpiece and certainly the greatest opponent of systematic action on climate change in this country, put them together apply to the federal government, in federal politics. It's very hard to I just that's a really kind of circumvented that, and really looked at the science and really tried to appear to be doing meaningful things. As the fossil fuel lobby dropped the ball when it comes to interacting the states or,

Dan Ilic 33:12

or I just can't i can't reconcile of how the federal government can't acknowledge where the states are at and meet the states where they are, and just do the right thing.

Kevin Rudd 33:23

I think it's because the

Dan Ilic 33:26

I'm talking I'm also sorry, I'm sorry, Kevin. I'm also talking about both parties here. I feel like liberal and labor.

Kevin Rudd 33:31

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've been talking about my home. I'm not, you know, I mean, I've, I've explained some of the failings on our side. I mean, the bottom line is, for God's sake, you know, the Green Party, joined with liberals to defeat the carbon price. Back in 2009. The Labour Party did what it did in terms of the coup in 2010, for the reasons that we outlined. And then Abbott Upon his election repealed the the carbon price, which then then existed. So there's some responsibility to share with a lap around. Let's be, let's be blunt about this. The liberal National Party have been ideologically committed to destroying the carbon price for a very long time. And had they had a reverse view, we would be 10 years down the track,

Dan Ilic 34:26

but it but it feels like you're talking to two different countries. When you're talking about the state's position and the in the federal position like now, it's 2020. Surely the federal government can just flick a switch and jump on board because what they're doing is moot because the states are putting in so much pressure and putting in so many mechanisms to meet those targets.

Kevin Rudd 34:48

That's true. So to answer your question, as a matter of analysis, I assume that the carbon lobby spend list time, less effort and less money on stake counterparts they do federally point 1.2. I just notice and note that Murdoch does not run a campaign against state political parties and state governments on carbon. The only exception I would say would be, you know, they're in and out of the Adani debate in the, in the case of Queensland politics in the last federal election. And they may be back on that next time around as well. So I just think it's differential treatment. And ultimately, they know that the taxation powers here are a federal power. So that's where the why they put all their their bucks into that particular basket, I think,

Dan Ilic 35:38

yes, my best. There makes sense. Now I've got some questions from my Patreon supporters. Kevin, I hope you for them. Simon, who is Simon Holmes, a court asks you what if you work collaboratively with the libs in 2008 to push through the cprs rather than roasting Turnbull slowly, all the way up to late 2009. Do you think you might have gotten over the line rather than giving an opening for the rise of Tony Abbott

Kevin Rudd 36:01

Well, thank you Mr. Han's, do your homework and get your facts straight, and have a long chat to Penny Wong, who was my Minister for climate change. And he did all the negotiations with with Turnbull, and with MacFarlane, her brief for me, he was to get a deal. And if you look at our original draft, the cprs. And what we ended up with line after line after line, we compromised in order to make it possible for Turnbull to deliver this to his party room. And in the end, what Turnbull took to his party room was what they signed up to, and believe they could prevail on remember Turnbull at the end of the day, lost by one vote. So it's pretty easy for Mr. Holmes a court to say, oh, in advance you should have known precisely, Kevin how much further you should have compromised on your on your carbon price, your carbon pollution reduction scheme. At the time in order to give not turnable a one seat loss for the leaders or one vote loss for the leadership but a five vote majority. I think it's a little a little defying of the logic to to suggest that anyone could have that level of as it were. For side anyway ask Penny she had a complete negotiating brief to do it

Dan Ilic 37:21

on on that. Do you regret not building a bridge with the greens at that point? folks in the green said that they never had a phone call with anyone from from your side.

Kevin Rudd 37:32

That's just a complete lie, lie, lie. It's not an untruth. It is actually a deliberate lie. And the reason is, Penny Wong was dealing with the greens all the way through. Why was she doing it because all the greens are in the Senate. They're not announcer representatives and that's where the numbers were. So day in day out she'd been negotiating with the greens day in day out should be negotiating with Turnbull, and with MacFarlane. And when she came in and said, we've got a deal, you know, I was delighted. So this whole idea of having some perverse interest in roasting Turnbull slowly. It's just a nonsense. It's again, it's a post facto narrative on the part of the Green Party. And they sought to exonerate themselves for just absolute bloody mindedness, by the way you want. The final proof of that is the cprs regime, the carbon pollution reduction scheme is a more rigorous regime in terms of its coverage of the economy than the subsequent carbon tax that they agreed with with Gilad after the 2010 election, the one that was then ultimately repealed by by by Abbott. So the Green Party just have no credit on this.

Dan Ilic 38:49

And even though that was repealed, did you end that was not your particular policy at that point in time. When it was repealed. Were you How did you feel about that, that repealing was it Personal was he we joyful that it got repaired because it wasn't yours or where you're upset that,

Kevin Rudd 39:04

you know sick in the stomach. And you may remember that in the 2013 election in order to seek to preserve it, remember the politics of it was this Gilad political failure was this a, she used opposition to the carbon price and the carbon pollution reduction scheme as part of her push against me for the leadership? that's proven, let's just establish That's a fact. Secondly, she then has a near death experience in the 2010 election, scrambled time with the minority government, the Green Party then walk in and say, we're only going to support you if you put a price on carbon. And so suddenly, it's a carbon tax and not a floating price. And the problem is Gilad has promised in the previous election campaign that they will not That there will never be a carbon tax under a government will try and leave. At that point she killed the political credibility of her government at that point, and everything was downhill from then. So when I came back What did I do to get around that? I said, the first thing that we'll be doing is to legislate to turn the fixed price into a floating price to Megan do emissions trading scheme, thereby removing the political bugbear. This was a complete election breach by gilla.

Dan Ilic 40:29

I've got another question from one of our Patreon supporters. Claire Jenkins writes about this point in time right now we're in with with COVID and the economics of that we're living through. She asked if he was in power, what policies or industries would he prop up to help push Australia out of its current economic mess?

Kevin Rudd 40:47

What I do is complete the bloody National Broadband Network in the manner in which it was originally conceived as fiber optic to the pregnancy. Yes, and because Can you Imagine where we'd be right now, if there was no NBN at all. So we launched this thing, but back then 2008 was to be fiber optic to the premises. The other mob got elected in 2013 killed it by making it fiber optic to the node in order to look after Murdoch and his mates because they didn't want Netflix to be able to go straight through to people's homes. As a result, we have a much weaker broadband, as you know. But unless we launched the National Broadband Network when we did, there would be no national broadband at present, you'd have bits and pieces in various cities, large cities, but that's about it. So what would I do, given that where COVID-19 has taken us, which is the digital economy is the future unless this country has a fully functioning digital network with fiber optic to everyone else, everyone, small business, etc. We ain't gonna be competing. So I put the cache finish the job that we should have completed, had not the other mob taken Rupert's interest into account and killed it.

Dan Ilic 42:10

A lot of a lot has been written about that and when you hear it clear cut out of your mouth. Do you? Is it weird to kind of say How is it? I guess what I'm asking for Do you have a certain sense of shot in Florida with the way Fox tells subscribe is being dropped off?

Kevin Rudd 42:29

Well, I think Fox Fox hills ship program programming anyway, but look, Murdock knew back then and one of the reasons he turns out viciously against us is because of fiber optic to the premises. He just didn't want Netflix competition at that point. He wanted to be able to as it were evolved foxtel into a different business over time, because of you know, the residual investments in cable which he laid out a long time before that. So I basically marched in, and unbeknownst to myself, because I was just advancing a National Broadband Network for the good of the economy and for people working from home, etc for the future. I torpedoed his commercial strategy over bloody foxtel which was his only remaining cash cow in the country. So am I happy that fox Hill is going through the floor? Nah, I don't. I don't enjoy other people's pain. But God, you could see this coming.

Dan Ilic 43:28

It's so strange. Like if the NBN had been built to its fruition to its original design, Fox will probably be in a better bad, better position, they probably had to build a robust streaming business off the back of high capacity streaming.

Kevin Rudd 43:43

If I had any imagination, that's exactly what they would have done. But they had nothing they wanted to protect. What was then a billion dollars a year cash cow, because everyone in those days was watching for till there was nothing else and it costs subsidized. Murdoch's real power, which is his national print monopoly, all of which will last making the most of which will last me.

Dan Ilic 44:01

Let's talk about that going to say rupert murdoch, I seem to remember you going to say riverbed rocks before you ran? What was that conversation? Like in the room? And how do you? How do you have that conversation? And what do you talk about when you when you tell rupert murdoch, you're running for Prime Minister?

Kevin Rudd 44:20

Well, before anyone accuses me of being hypocrite, I've been doing that.

Dan Ilic 44:24

No, no, no, no, no one's accusing you of being hypocrite. I just want to know, what is it like? You know, what is this?

Kevin Rudd 44:30

What is it like for your listeners to understand why someone like me would do that? If the guy has 70% of the print media, and that he is definitionally hostile to labor, then isn't it better that I can as it were get to a stage where maybe in the 2007 election, we get 5050 coverage rather than 99 one which is the norm against labor, so that's why I did it. Really reduce

Dan Ilic 44:57

we all know why you do it. You know, when I every He does it. Every single buddy does it Kevin, what I want to know is what is it? Like? What's the feeling like of waiting in the lobby to say rip up?

Kevin Rudd 45:10

And what is it like waiting to shake? It's like waiting to shake hands with Gollum, you know? And then there's this thing that sits in the room opposite view saying, oh, precious, my precious, my precious. You have to be able to kind of understand the analogy there. I hope your listeners do. I think

Dan Ilic 45:29

Gollum is widely publicized throughout popular culture to get back.

Kevin Rudd 45:32

I don't know, you know, I'm just, I'm just 200 from the Queensland country. I'm not sure but so you're dealing with Gollum. And you got to understand that Gollum has got precious in his hands. And that's his share price. And he is a deeply far right conservative individual. So you just working with what you got the only thing that I could find that his interests in mind overlapped He believes in something called Small Business formation. And so, and because, you know, Trey's, my wife set up her own small business, which became a big business over time, we can talk about that. But beyond that, you're kind of dealing with a guy whose worldview is out there to the point where, you know, Attila the Hun would stop and blush at a particular point in that conversation.

Dan Ilic 46:27

And what were you feeling that what was your What was your gut feeling during that meeting? How are you handling that?

Kevin Rudd 46:34

Okay, well, you're in a negotiation, you know, and he's been around longer than me. He's dealt with political leaders, a lot of them before me. And so am I, of course anxious thing to get a better outcome for the Labour Party would otherwise be the case because I am. And she knows something. It's impoossible Tto warm to this guy there is there's nothing personal, personally redeeming about him. It's just, you know, and I've had many interactions with him. It's just nothing to talk about the values that I can identify of any redeeming quality, it's transactional. It's about the share price, and it's about power. That's his worldview.

Dan Ilic 47:27

For me. It's quite strange to reconcile that, the Australian who has had more effect on the world than anyone is Rupert Murdoch, it's in some respects, he is Australia's greatest Australian. But he's also Rupert Murdoch.

Kevin Rudd 47:43

He's our worst, He's our worst export.

You know, in the United States where I spend most of my time Yeah, like since I came second in the 2013 election.

Dan Ilic 47:55

Do they give you a certificate or a ribbon for coming second?

Kevin Rudd 48:00

You get a runner up prize, you know, you get red for coming second rat, you had blue coming first and you're green for coming third. Anyway, so some of the United States I've been running an American think tank for the last five years, I get asked every day by Americans, how we ended up producing this phenomenon, which is, which is Murdoch, who is not just a cancer on the Australian democracy, which is cancer on the British democracy and a cancer on the American democracy.

Dan Ilic 48:30

Now, tell me, do you think we can get meaningful climate action around the world if we convince that we convince Rupert and Laughlin that climate action is working?

Kevin Rudd 48:39

I don't think it's a deliverable outcome. Murdoch is such an arrogant individual that he regards his own worldview is by definition, right. And that climate change is just, you know, as, as Abbott said, is absolute crap. That's his worldview. lochlan word Murdoch is no better by the way and lots of money. Because as deeply conservative on climate questions as his father, the only reason he would change I think is if somehow the ultimate News Corp share price was about to be ripped to pieces as a result of it. So News Corp shareholders Think about it.

Dan Ilic 49:15

Well, Gary has chimed in he says, How can we dismantle Murdoch's media holdout politics? We've kind of covered that a little bit. I don't think that's possible right.

Kevin Rudd 49:25

Now, I think we need to revisit to the media ownership laws in the country. One of the reasons why I for three years now call for a royal commission into media ownership and diversity in this country is that we cannot any longer sustain a system whereby this guy controls 70% of the print readership, my state of Queensland, which usually determines federal election outcomes. He has fought 13 of the 14 newspapers. And you ask the question, why is this state you know, constantly such hard going for the Labour Party? That's one of the reasons Do you think It even is relevant now in 2020, when you've got things like Facebook and misinformation as such huge levels that Murdoch has kind of his powers diminished and fake news is probably more of a threat. Oh, Murdoch is fake news. What I mean by that is, is you'd be surprised because what's happening with the hollowing out of the news industry in this country? Generally, the demise of local newspapers or regional newspapers, independent publishing houses, the collapse of APN and Fairfax, getting thinner and thinner. Is that why does Murdoch handy hang on to these loss making enterprises because he knows it's still an avenue for political power? And why is that because both the radio, television and social media still take so many feeds out of print, which he continues to dominate? Why does he have hundreds of working journalists at the Australian pumping out conservative crap every day is because if you go into a radio station in, you know, some regional center in, in rural Victoria, guess what's open on the on the on the interview This sets the agenda, that day's Australia. It sets the agenda and that's why they do it.

Dan Ilic 51:18

Now Gary is also asks is Jeff it's given and his support for the fossil fuel industry a liability for the AARP on climate change issues.

Kevin Rudd 51:29

I haven't sat down with Joel to have a long enough talk about what his actual end point is here. Whether he's seeking to change Federal Labor policy, or whether he's simply trying to protect his own seat. So I'll just pass comment on that. until I've really had a decent conversation with him because I don't quite understand the game plan.

Dan Ilic 51:52

Leadership is hard, Kevin, and I really appreciate you taking time to answer our questions today. If you had one bit of advice for Leaders heading into this space to and people of all walks of life wanting to show leadership on climate action. What would you say to them?

Kevin Rudd 52:09

I'd probably say two or three things. One, keep up to date with the technical and policy literature. It changes remarkably quickly, both in what technology is capable of, but also where the policy debates are going. It's very easy to become, as it were outdated. First point. Number two, be absolutely unapologetic about establishing a bold policy vision. People may not like climate change as the greatest moral challenge of our generation, they may like it. But whatever the equivalent is, you've got to hold open a vision by which people can in mobilizing organize action, a second thing without a vision the people perish on the Old Testament prophets once wrote. The third thing is this vision is useless unless you do three things, organize, organize and organize. And so here is the great problem often with activists in one form or another is that they love to seminar. They love to talk, but bloody organizing. That's difficult. And it's hard. And so organizing people to get on the talkback radio on to GB where everyone screams and shouts at you, is quite different from whether you join the queue to end up on q&a in a more comfortable environment at the ABC on a Monday evening. So organize, organize, organize, so read, keep across the literature, to lay out a vision for the son that plans extended vision splendid on the sun that plans extended for one As the destination point for climate so that it is both about our environment, our ecology and our economy wrapped together and three, organize, organize, organize. And the last one is hard

Dan Ilic 54:11

on the hard subjects. One of the hardest things about this is thinking about climate, in terms of justice, for leaders heading into this space, how can we reconcile justice for people who are on the who get the roar end of the deal? From our lavish lifestyles, talking about people who are most climate who most climate vulnerable people in areas where they're their land is going to be taken away by I say or by fires? How can we start really? How do you think about climate justice and like, what's is there? Is there one prism you look at that through?

Kevin Rudd 54:55

Yeah, we've got to have the prison as I have sought to in my employer. A lot of being a global citizen. I mean, it's so easy in political life just to see yourself as Joe local, or at best. Joe national. By definition, this one goes way beyond the national boundaries. So unless you have political leaders who see themselves, not just intellectually, but emotionally as global citizens, that is, has a better quality of empathy, which is those who risk the inundation of their entire lives and livelihoods in care Boston, Tuvalu, Marshall Islands and elsewhere. bows who will be forced from the land in terms of the meager subsistence economies which they support 40 million of them the low lowest line parts of Bangladesh, unless you actually have these house holes in your head, then it's an obstruction. So that's one thing the second day what you do about it. And so when we did the second pillar to the Copenhagen agreement, which was the hundred billion dollar climate adjustment fund, for which then became Green Fund, to assist in adaptation purposes for those sorts of countries and economies and regions, and, frankly, not serious. So it's both attitudinal and understanding. As john Wesley used to say, in a different context, several centuries ago, the world is my parish. That is, you know, we're global citizens here and it's a planetary challenge. And but then, secondly, being brutally pragmatic about the policy instruments necessary to support people who are not going to have an option.

Dan Ilic 56:53

One of the enduring images I think of your prime ministership was during the Queensland floods, and seeing you walk down the streets in your neighborhood helping people to evacuate the floods. And something interesting by comparison is seeing Scott Morrison holidays in Hawaii and then coming back to Australia saying he doesn't hold a hose. When you see that kind of leadership, what goes through your head?

Kevin Rudd 57:21

Look, I don't know what was in his head when he's to go to Waikiki. I've got no idea. And so I don't know what family pressures were on him or what all the rest of it. But what worries me about Morrison more generally, I've got to say is this when people have christened him Scotty from marketing? I think they're very close to the money here. Because there's a former state director of liberal party. Morrison and my experience is always concerned about how he appears and how the Liberal Party appears and Marketing and public relations since that's his first instinct if you if you were to ask me this, what is Scott Morrison's policy worldview? I could Nancy you and I've known this guy quite well in the federal parliament, but I was still a member. So, and we've got these sort of folks in the Labour Party as well. I'm not pretending to be Robinson Crusoe, that I'm so not pretending that this is a problem for liberal parties just that this guy's ended up as prime minister.

Dan Ilic 58:27

I thought you were predicted to be Robinson Crusoe because you have this amazing beard but

Kevin Rudd 58:32

that's by the way No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's, that's my attempt to go into my next Hemingway phase is getting a Remington manual typewriter and cigars and love Jamaica rum. I'm taking lessons a TAFE course in bullfighting. So you know, to complete the Hemingway sort of delusion. So I think, you know, I didn't know what was in Morrison's mind, but I've got to say you Going against his own benchmark that was a big marketing failure. You know, something in politics, it's not that complicated. The Australian public can spot a fraud at 1000 paces. Look in your eyeballs. And they they know whether you're for real or not. And, and the problem here is this guy's a marketing guy. And that's, I think, ultimately his downfall.

Dan Ilic 59:31

Kevin, in Australia, do Prime Ministers get to keep the title, don't have to call your prime minister Kevin Rudd. Oh, God, no.

Kevin Rudd 59:39

And I think it's one of the great things about Australia. We don't go in for all that stuff. I live in America and people call you Prime Minister all the time. It's get it gets embarrassing. Here. I'm very lucky in a given day, if I just get away with Kevin. Usually it's considerably worse than that.

Dan Ilic 59:54

Well, Kevin, thank you so much for joining us on irrational fear. You're completely generous with But the topics we went to the areas we went to, and I thank you for for your time and your insight and your intellect. Thanks, my pleasure to be with you and thanks for Thanks for knighting me on Twitter. I was very kind of you I didn't deserve it. But, you know, I thought I thought any Tony Abbott could do that.

Kevin Rudd 1:00:17

No, no, it's it's a general dispensation for those of us who have been Prime Minister of this country.

Dan Ilic 1:00:24

Thanks very much, Kevin.

Kevin Rudd 1:00:27

GM, the greatest moral podcast of our generation.

Dan Ilic 1:00:31

That was Kevin Rudd, what did you think Lynne? If you start watching all of the Lord of the Rings movies now including all the other Hobbit, you should be able to finish it just by the time the world implodes, so you should be fine

Linh Do 1:00:43

by the time we leave lockdown. That's right. That's how I'm spending the rest of Melbourne stage four.

Dan Ilic 1:00:48

On the second Monday of every month, we're going to be holding these conversations coming down the line. I'm going to be talking with the se moseby who is fighting for the tar strike. Sarah Wilson, Adam bandt and Rebecca Huntley. Also on the list as well. And I want to know who you'd like to hear from drop me a line at Dan at irrational fear.com or on social media. Thanks a lot, everyone. We'll see you next month for the greatest moral podcast of our generation or next week for irrational fear.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai