5 Critical Considerations When Dividing Executive Compensation In Divorce with Marianna Goldenberg, CDFA®
Manage episode 305833737 series 2372562
On the newest episode of We Chat Divorce we’re speaking with Marianna Goldenberg, the Founder and CEO of Curo Wealth Management in Langhorne, PA. Marianna is a Certified Divorce Financial Analyst (CDFA®). Marianna was just eighteen years old when she left behind the oppression and dangers of living in the Soviet Union, with a mere fifty dollars in her hand. Seeking a better life and a safe place to rebuild where opportunity was the reward for integrity and ambition, she and her immediate family left everything and everyone they knew in Russia for a fresh start in Pennsylvania. Hard work, big dreams, and an undeniable determination to succeed led Marianna to UPenn’s Wharton School of Business. At Wharton she earned degrees in mathematics and finance, thus kick-starting the financial career she is so passionate about today.
Learn More >> https://www.curowm.com/
Connect with Marianna Goldenberg on LinkedIn >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariannagoldenberg
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Karen Chellew: Welcome to We Chat Divorce. Catherine and I are happy to welcome Marianna Goldenberg, CDFA®, to our podcast today. In this episode, we're going to discuss five critical considerations when dividing executive compensation in divorce. But, first, let me take a couple minutes to introduce Marianna. With thirty years of experience, Marianna is founder and CEO of Curo Wealth Management. Curo Wealth Management is a financial planning firm located in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. Curo in Latin means to take care, and this is exactly what they do for a select group of families, women, and busy executives. When it comes to her clients, Marianna takes care of everything relating to their finances. She loves teaching and empowering people to make important decisions for their financial future, helping to set them off on a better path than where they started. Marianna especially loves it when they bring their kids into the conversation so that they can learn, too, and she can help them save for their futures. Welcome, Marianna.
Marianna Golden...: Thank you, Karen. Thank you, Catherine. Delighted to be part of your podcast today.
Catherine Shanah...: Oh, we're so happy to have you. And boy, oh, boy, could we go on and on about this conversation because I don't think that there's a day that goes by that I don't get frustrated of what people overlook when it comes to executive compensation, so this will be a great conversation for people listening. So thanks for coming on board.
Marianna Golden...: Of course.
Catherine Shanah...: You are a wealth of knowledge and often a resource I go to when we're doing our financial portraits to get some more input from you because you really are an expert when it comes to executive compensation.
Marianna Golden...: Thank you.
Catherine Shanah...: It's my pleasure.
Karen Chellew: I completely agree. What would we do without Marianna some days?
Catherine Shanah...: The only thing I think was missing from your intro there, which was a nice long intro, Karen, thank you for that, was when you said, "She looks after families and teaching children." Where are the dogs? Marianna's always including her dog in something.
Marianna Golden...: Absolutely.
Karen Chellew: Lola.
Marianna Golden...: It's a big part of our firm. The board of stress management.
Catherine Shanah...: Oh, yeah. So let's jump into this, five things to consider. I know there's more than that, and we'll tackle five of them today. This is just such a topic that people are afraid of, their attorneys steer away from sometimes, and the individuals, the non-employees, in particular, and even the employees themselves sometimes, a little bit of it is over their heads on what's considered marital and what's not considered marital. So what's the first thing somebody should consider?
Marianna Golden...: That's a great question, Catherine. What's really important to understand is, these days, a lot of companies change the way they reward their employees. They used to have lifetime pensions or cash bonuses, but the employers really tried to tie the success of the company to the compensation that they leave to their employees. Part of that is something that's called long-term incentives or executive compensation, and it's a really involved and very important concept. A lot of times, even the employees themselves don't understand how it works. Then you put divorce on top of that, and you have parties that are not privy to that, and it becomes a very complex issue that we always come across during the divorce and distribution of assets.
There are various kinds of long-term care incentive or executive compensation, and the most common ones are restricted stock units, performance stock units, stock options, which are then divided into qualified and non-qualified, and restricted stock units or RSUs for short. Those are the kinds of executive compensation that we normally see.
Catherine Shanah...: And how do you know if your spouse has that?
Marianna Golden...: That's a great question. A lot of times, it's really overlooked because, as part of discovery, attorneys usually ask for tax returns or other documents that don't include this particular type of compensation. Really, if someone works for especially publicly-traded companies and they are of a senior management position, chances are a part of their compensation is executive comp or LTI. The best way to determine if someone has one is obviously to ask, but not everybody is going to be forthcoming in sharing that information. The best way I've found to understand if someone has this type of compensation is ask for a few documents. The first one is a total compensation package, and it's really a printout that the employee gets every year that shows everything that they receive as part of their overall compensation.
The second one is to request their 1231 pay stub, and the reason I say 1231 is because different companies have different timing of when their executive compensation gets paid. Some do it in the beginning of the year, some do it in the middle, some do it quarterly, so it's really important. If you request 1231 pay stub, it will show up on that pay stub. It will not show up on W-2. It will not show on tax returns. So those are usually the two main documents that are requested, and if you just have those, you won't know. The other thing that's important, too, is to Google. We all know you can get any answer in Google these days. So part of discovery should be Googling the compensation for the company, and chances are you'll find out a lot about the plans by doing that in conjunction with the rest that I just mentioned.
Catherine Shanah...: I want to just expand a little bit on that 1031, I mean, 1231 pay stub or pay statement or however you want to reference it. So often, Karen and I, when we're putting together the financial portraits for individuals, will hear, "No, I got this pay stub or I got that pay stub," and, "No, they said that we can look at a W-2 with it," or, "What's the big deal? I have this quarter's pay stub." It really is a big deal to get that last year-end statement. There's a lot of valuable information in there, you're saying.
Marianna Golden...: Yep. There is additional bonus that was paid that wasn't outlined before this new project or patent or some kind of additional recognition, all going to show up there. It's such a great source for discovering compensation that wasn't disclosed.
Karen Chellew: And I'm going just going to ask because this is really not my area of expertise, except I'm in the document collection piece a lot. You're identifying the existence of the executive compensation because I know a lot of the other party or the spouse with the executive compensation will say, "Well, it exists. Yes, I agree with that, and here is this spreadsheet defining what the it is." So, to your point, that compensation package is important as to how it plays out. I just wanted to make the differentiation there from the existence of it to the valuation of it that's two different perspectives.
Marianna Golden...: So true, Karen, and it's a really valid point because a lot of people do just what you said, spreadsheets, and this is not a valid document from the company. Something that's called a stock or options ledger, which is the official document from the company, will identify... Once we know there is an existence of the executive compensation, it will be an official record that will identify what particular compensation we're talking about, all the particulars, the dates that they were awarded, the dates that they become available to the employee, and the taxes that will be taken. So it's really a wealth of information as well.
Catherine Shanah...: Can you compare that to a screenshot of someone logging into their net benefits statement on the computer? Is that the actual ledger? Because, often, when we're... Karen, when you're collecting the documents, you'll see the screenshot or someone just logging into their net benefits on a certain date, and it'll show what's vested, what's not vested. Is that the same thing as asking for the company's ledger?
Marianna Golden...: Depends on the screen and depends on the company, but I would say this is a good beginning because in order to be really fully disclosed, right, say, the screenshot is terrific. The other thing that's important is something that's called the summary plan description or SPD because that's going to really spell out the ins and outs of the specific plan. Also, if there are any historical vesting or exercise that happened before, we need those exercise invoice to determine if the actual shares were sold or kept after the vesting. So it'll show us if that happened, when it happened, what was the cost basis of those shares and the taxes withheld. The historical part of that, during marriage, during separation, and then the future are all important parts for the overall picture.
Karen Chellew: I-
Catherine Shanah...: That's great.
Karen Chellew: Yeah. To your point there, too, Marianna, where you said that's a good beginning, I think sometimes it can stop there. As they're collecting documents, they get a couple pieces of paper and say, "Oh, this is a good beginning," whether it's the mediator or the attorney or whoever they're working with, and they assume that as they get closer to the agreement or to the trial or the master's conference or wherever they're going to be hashing out the logistics... No one has gone back to pull that ahead to get all the information. So I know when I'm working with clients, I'm saying, "Let's just get this out of the gate. It's easy to get. If you're getting one thing, you might as well get all of it," so that everybody has that fund of information from which to work. I think that's so important because, by the end of it, if you're not staying on top of it to collect all the relevant information, you've got a lot of information to collect and things get easily overlooked when you're trying to hash out a settlement.
Marianna Golden...: I totally agree. I really believe in saying, "You don't know what you don't know." So in order to have the good understanding, you have to have all the documents and make the conclusions. But then you have the facts. That's what you need.
Karen Chellew: Yeah.
Catherine Shanah...: Yes. And it's much easier to get those facts, to Karen's point, when you're in the process of collecting and you're not getting fatigued by the whole process and just over it. By the time that you really need the facts, you just don't want ... You want to be done with it. So I totally agree with that. What's the next tip, number two, for you to consider?
Marianna Golden...: So we just discussed how do you even know someone has that particular asset. The second one, once you determine if someone does have the executive compensation plan, you really have to understand what it is that you're looking at. As I mentioned, there is various types of executive compensation stock options, restricted stock units, performance stock units, long-term deferred comp. The important thing is to make sure you get a summary plan description for each document and really outline what it is that you're dealing with. If it's stock options, are they incentive stock options or they're non-qualified stock options? What are the terms? When do they vest? When you exercise, do you hold the stock or do you sell the stock?
Each award is very different. And I see it a lot in the property settlement agreements where they use the word vested or exercise for the wrong time of the executive plan, so you really want to make sure if it's options, they're vesting and they're exercised. If these are restricted stock units you're talking about, they cannot be exercised. They can only vest, and you have no control with when, where with the stock options, you do have control when you can exercise. So it's very different terminology that gets often mixed up between different awards. So that's-
Catherine Shanah...: Which seems like an easy thing, right? But now you've signed your agreement and you have to make sure that you're able to execute your agreement. So if the language is not properly written, how does that happen? So these are really good points, and I know if you're listening to this podcast right now, your head is probably doing a whole spin-around because you've mentioned a lot of big words like vesting and non-qualified and qualified. So it's really important, I'm hearing you say, to get that summary plan description so that you do not have to be a genius with this but you have to be able to have the document to actually outline what it is that you're doing with it.
Marianna Golden...: That's exactly right because I often see the document that spells something out about the plan, something like let's divide this particular asset in half or the employee can do this or that, and it's really important to know that if your legal document says that you can do something but the document that the plan is based on doesn't allow for it, you can't do anything. The divorce document becomes obsolete if the plan document doesn't allow for a certain transaction. If you don't have the summary plan description that you incorporate into your divorce document, it's not going to work. It's just useless piece of paper at that point, and guess what? You have to go back and negotiate and pay additional fees to get it resolved.
Karen Chellew: That's such a good point, Marianna. I know when we're compiling the MDS portrait for our clients and they have executive compensation, we'll put that in the table of recommendations and considerations. We'll say, "This is what you have, this is what you need, and this is who can help you," because a lot of attorneys frankly aren't financially trained. Of course, it takes a village. It takes a team when getting through any kind of difficult challenges. So even if your attorney may not understand how the executive compensation works or all the nuances of it or the complexities of it, you can take that to your financial planner, just like Marianna, who can help you know how that plays out so that your attorney has the information he or she needs then to get that agreement rock solid for you.
Marianna Golden...: It's so true. I often work with couples where they do have their financial planners but these particular people are not specialized in the executive compensation. So they might say this is what they suggest, but it's not going to be really useful if that's not their specialty. I would highly recommend to talk to your financial professionals and see do you work with executive compensation, do you understand how it works, do you have specific companies and plans that you are really familiar with because although it's a common asset, but each plan might has its own specifics and you need to know those specifics.
Catherine Shanah...: And let me piggyback off of what you were saying, Karen, because let's take a look at the downside to all of this, I guess. So let's just say I'm sitting here and I have this agreement and I'm listening to you guys speak and I say, "Okay, great, my language isn't saying what Karen just said." Now, Marianna, you're my financial planner and I bring you my agreement. Are you going to force me to go back to my ex-spouse to get this plan description because it was never requested before? How are you going to help me if I don't have that information?
Marianna Golden...: That's a really unknown question. It really is because I did have situations where someone comes with a document and says, "Can you help me execute the terms?" It's really hard when the other spouse isn't open or amicable. It's really hard to put it for something that's not spelled out. So it might be case where you need to back and have the agreement rewritten if the other side is not cooperating with the terms. I often recommend for people even to have a separate agreement which is not part of the overall MSA that states how to exactly go about and execute the terms of the executive compensation.
Also, a lot of times... And we might talk about it more. A lot of times, you have to understand that the executive compensation is only an asset when it becomes vested. So doing something beforehand, the employee even doesn't own that asset until it's vested, so it might take a couple years before it becomes a real asset. But then the considerations have to be made. Is it an asset subject to support, or is it an asset subject to equitable distribution? You can't double-dip, so that really has to be outlined as well in the property settlement agreement. So it really-
Catherine Shanah...: Oh, boy, do we need to do a... We need another podcast just on that. I know that if you're listening, you might write in and give us some questions on that, and I'm sure Marianna will come back because that's such an important realization to make when you're negotiating. A lot of people don't really want to sit back in that seat and say no. They want to double-dip and the other party doesn't. And to round out what we just said a second ago, if you're listening, whether you're the employee spouse or the non-employee spouse, if you do not want to communicate after the fact, which is in most cases, make sure you give the documentation that's needed now and make sure you ask for the documentation needed now so that you can ensure that the proper language is in your agreement or that you have another agreement, which I love that idea, so that you do not have to communicate on these issues moving forward. Great point there.
Marianna Golden...: Yep.
Karen Chellew: And I'm just going to give a little case, I guess, summary of something that we experienced not too long ago, where the couple had an agreement and, for whatever reason, it said the spouse was supposed to give the other spouse a copy of the W-2. So that didn't happen, but the pay stub what was needed, Marianna, to your point.
Marianna Golden...: Yes. Yes.
Karen Chellew: And they only got the W-2. But the agreement didn't call for the W-2. I mean, the agreement did not call for the pay stub. It only called for the W-2. So that became a real issue because, now, the spouse was without the proper documentation for her accountant to work with.
Marianna Golden...: Yep. And that's the thing. You need to know what to ask for because if you don't know what you don't know, the agreement will not be complete and filed properly.
Catherine Shanah...: I totally agree. Can you all hear me? I thought I lost my audio there.
Karen Chellew: Yes.
Catherine Shanah...: Okay, great.
Marianna Golden...: Nope.
Catherine Shanah...: Sorry for the little delay.
Karen Chellew: Can you hear me, by the way?
Catherine Shanah...: A little low.
Karen Chellew: Okay.
Marianna Golden...: Yep.
Catherine Shanah...: That's a little sidebar there if you're listening to us. It's technical day on Monday, right? So that brings us to your third consideration, which is really, really important, and, boy, I could go on forever about this one. A lot of times, you have an agreement written up or you're negotiating and your attorney or your mediator, they're leading that negotiation and they don't even realize if these awards are transferrable or even dividable. So how do you suggest somebody considers that?
Marianna Golden...: Great question. I do see it quite a bit, where attorneys state in the property settlement agreement that here is options or issues or what have you, and they should be divided 50/50, 60/40, whatever that might be. As I said before, if the summary plan description or plan document does not allow for transferability, which is probably 90% of the time, you can't divide this. It doesn't matter what your document says. So the first thing, what's really important, is to, a., define what you're trying to divide. Don't just say stock option, which is a generic term. Put the stock options for restricted stock units. Attach the ledger that we discussed, which clearly indicates the numbers, what's the grant number, what's the date of the grant, the vesting schedule, and so forth so you have the exhibit outlining that. Then that exhibit should, and we didn't talk about it yet, but that should state what part of those options or issues are marital property and what are not. Because the ledger might show and will show all of them, you have to identify specific lots that are subject to division.
Then, if you understand the plan document after you request it, you will know that it has to be done on the specific terms in order to be divided. So, as we mentioned, if they are non-transferrable, the only way you can give the non-employee spouse their portion is by non-employee spouse giving a written authorization to their ex-spouse of the action they wanted to complete. Is it an action of exercising their option after vesting? Do they want to keep the stock after they exercise? Do they want the employee spouse sell the stock and send them the proceeds and how much tax to withhold? So there is a lot of moving parts. They all make sense once you do it once, and they're a specific order. But that's the only way pretty much with few exceptions that transferability has to take place, and it has to be outlined very specifically in the document, which I, again, suggest to be a separate document aside from the property settlement agreement. Is that what you're asking?
Catherine Shanah...: Boy. Again, we're throwing out a lot of terms. I know if you're listening to this and your head's spinning again, that's a lot to consider, right?
Marianna Golden...: Yeah.
Catherine Shanah...: So, again, we're going to go back to getting the documentation so you can absorb it all a little bit at a time, not when you're forced to go to a settlement hearing and not when you're forced to negotiate. If you can digest this information beforehand, you'll make smart decisions. So, really, the transferability and the division, because there's other things to consider and some of that money was taxed already, so now you don't want to be told that it's going to be taxed again, right? So it depends on the reward that's given. There's so much to consider.
Marianna Golden...: Yeah, it's a very complex asset, if you will, but it could be used as a very rewarding asset if you know what you're doing because it's easily overlooked but it's also easily used improperly. Sometimes, it's by design. Sometimes, it's just because someone doesn't know or understand how it works. Even people that work for a company, they're busy executives. They keep running and building their corporate career, and they don't have, often, time to slow down and understand how it works. So they might not themselves understand what's involved, let alone someone who's not involved in the company.
Catherine Shanah...: That's a really good point because often everyone takes the position that my spouse is lying to me about this or they're hiding this from me, and maybe we can look at it from a different point of view saying maybe they just don't understand it themselves, right? So, again, it goes back to really requiring the documentation so that everybody's working uniformly on the same information. Also, yes, this is such a complex asset, but, remember, a lot of wealth today was built off of this asset, so don't be afraid of it. Don't walk away from it and choose your home or something else because it's an easier solution. Take the time to understand what's on the table here before you make that decision.
Marianna Golden...: And if you don't understand, work with professionals. That's really important because, just like you wouldn't want to make your healthcare decisions without going to different specialists and getting second opinions and really making an informative decision, it's the same thing in place here. If you don't know, ask. If you're not sure whoever you ask is giving you information that you can easily understand and process, go somewhere else. It's much easier and plus the fact that it's time-effective to do it all up-front than deal with it at the end.
One of the reasons I became a CDFA fifty years ago was because someone came to me with this specific situation, where they gave up their rights to the executive compensation because it was something difficult and something they couldn't quite understand and decided to take their home as an asset and gave up the executive compensation. Guess what happened? 2007, 2008, when real estate market collapsed, they had an asset that they thought worth a lot of money that was not liquid. They couldn't refinance because they didn't have the income to get approved for a refinancing, and they couldn't really sell it because the prices dropped significantly. So they didn't have choices, and you always want to be in control of your financial situation. The only way you can, if you look at all the choices and then you make a decision that's based on data and your understanding, not because somebody said so.
Catherine Shanah...: Exactly. If you ask a question once to your advisor... Marianna knows this for a fact. I must've asked 15 times the same question, just so I had complete understanding of something, and that's okay. That's really okay.
Marianna Golden...: Yep.
Karen Chellew: From the perspective of choosing your battles, this is one of them where you definitely want to lean in and make sure you have all of the documentation necessary so that you can make an informed decision. It is so important because it could be the difference of 100, 200, 300,000 dollars. It's to that level. I know a lot of people have a budget when it comes to divorce and they can only spend so much money, and I completely get that, and we respect that. But this is one of those assets that you definitely want to make sure you have the information and documentation you need to make that really good decision for yourself.
Marianna Golden...: So true. So true. And another important consideration for that, if you already listened to us and you've done all the work and you've made the right decision, it's the follow-up or follow-through that I often see people overlook because once the proper documents are executed, then somebody actually needs to follow up and put them into work. If you are working with the incentive compensation that is going to stand over a number of years and you already moved on with your life, it's hard to remember, yes, you have to go back every year, and not only do you have to make sure that you give your ex-spouse instructions how to execute the share that you were rewarded, because it's done on the annual basis, you also have to make sure that the taxes or tax consequences are addressed, and that's on the annual basis as well. So who wants to be attached by the hip every year, which is true, but, also, if there is lots of money, like Karen said, involved, perhaps that's something you want to do.
Catherine Shanah...: Well, that's one thing I love about you and your practice. You are diligent and almost sometimes probably a thorn in my side because you follow up so much on these kind of things, right? That's so important because time goes so quickly. Even myself personally, I can't believe I was divorced 11 years ago, I think it is, 11 years ago, or 10 year. You probably can't believe it, right? It goes so fast with the blink of an eye. So you can very easily let that vesting date or let that sales, if you had just sold the shares or whatever, and you're not following it... So if you don't have a good financial planner who's working on your team to keep you in line with this, then you can lose out. So, yes, I do think that's a great interview question when picking a financial planner. What is their expertise in this field, and how do you help me stay in line with this? Those are really good questions, and I know you really cover that quite well.
Karen Chellew: Very true. Great question.
Catherine Shanah...: So what is the timing and the tax consequences? I know that's another consideration and maybe the fifth consideration for handling these types of complex issues.
Marianna Golden...: And yet another great question. So it's really important to go back to the beginning where we said, in 90% of the cases, the executive compensation is owned by the employee and it's not transferrable. What that means, that that employee will have to go through the steps of exercising or selling the asset or vesting, if it's related to restricted stock units. Any of those transactions mean the next step is taxes because when you are awarded executive compensation, they're not taxed at the time of the reward. They're taxed at the time of vesting when it's related to RSUs or at times of exercise as related to stock options. When those two events happen, that's when that taxation occurs.
A lot of times, companies change their rules. They will do the mandatory tax withholdings on your behalf. When I say mandatory, that means federal tax, state tax, local tax, FICA, Medicare tax, Social Security tax. So all that is subtracted before the employee gets their net check. Some companies allow for the employee to increase their federal withholding if they already know they're in a higher tax bracket. Some companies are going to do it the same across the board. For example, I work with a lot of J&J employees. They're across the board. Federal withholdings is 22%. You can't increase it, you can't make it lower, so that's what it is. You have to remember that when you get that check, it's already net of taxes.
Now, if they attached a 22% on the exercise or vesting, it's not necessarily means that what you pay at the end of the year or in the beginning of the following year when you do your taxes. If you are in a lower effective tax bracket, that means you're going to get some of the tax back when you file your taxes. If you're in a higher effective tax bracket, you're going to have to pay more. That's where the confusion comes in. The employee got taxed. They give the net proceeds to their ex-spouse, but it's on them to pay the tax. So the reconciliation has to be made every year where both parties should have their tax return side by side and they should see, okay, well, if the employee's spouse had paid 22% federal withholding but their actual effective tax rate or how much they've paid on their tax return is only 20%, they owe the difference of extra tax up-front to their non-employee spouse.
I know it's really confusing, and I explain it to my clients every year, and I have to repeat it again. But it's so important because most people don't follow through with this. On the flip side, if the employee spouse paid 22% withholding but they are actually in the 35% effective tax rate because of other compensation or other income sources, the non-employee spouse now owes money to them. So some people, when they reconcile it, they sometimes split money in escrow so there is not much going back and forth. But it has to be all spelled out in the document because if it's not, who's going to enforce it?
Catherine Shanah...: Exactly. And, really, it's important to use your own independent accountant to reconcile this from your spouse's accountant because numbers could be interpreted differently.
Marianna Golden...: Yep. I've heard this phrase once and I really liked it. It made a lot of sense to me. Everybody's entitled their own opinion, but no one is entitled to their own facts. Facts are facts. So-
Catherine Shanah...: I like that.
Marianna Golden...: I really love it. So you're absolutely correct. Independent accountants because here's the fact, that's how you reconcile it. If you use the same accountant, in my opinion, it's a conflict of interest.
Catherine Shanah...: And, in my opinion, don't be afraid that you might potentially owe back your spouse money because if your spouse is having that much more income that it's pushing their bracket up, it might be a reason for a support modification.
Marianna Golden...: That is true.
Catherine Shanah...: So they may not even ask you for that.
Marianna Golden...: Very true.
Karen Chellew: Good point. Good point. Well, this concludes our episode on five critical considerations when dividing executive compensation in divorce. Thank you, Marianna, for a great conversation.
Marianna Golden...: Thank you, ladies, for having me. It's something that fascinates me. The more complex it is, the more excited I get. So I hope that I was able to communicate it properly so to give, at least, people a sense of if you don't understand, ask. You don't know what you don't know. So I hope I was able to convey that.
Catherine Shanah...: And before we sign off, please tell us how our listeners can reach you.
Marianna Golden...: Great question. So the best way to reach us is to go to our website. It's www.curowm.com, and Curo is spelt C-U-R-O. WM stands for Wealth Management. So it's www.curowm.com. Our email address, our phone number, all our social media platforms are there. So we'd be more than happy to hear from our listeners.
Karen Chellew: Thank you.
Marianna Golden...: Thank you.
Karen Chellew: Okay. That's good.
Catherine Shanah...: Okay.
Karen Chellew: All right.
Catherine Shanah...: Oh my gosh. It's so much information, and it's so... I know it's just so scary for a lot of people. Even when we had a case and the financial planner gave the recommendation that our joint client just negotiate away the LTIs and the RSUs just to keep the home, I was like, "What?" Sometimes, I feel like some financial planners do that because they know they're not going to invest that money for a long time so there's no income for them. They're not making any money off this advice or what have you, and that's so annoying to me.
Marianna Golden...: It is so true. A lot of times, too, because they think it's complex, they don't understand it. They just want to give it away so they don't have to deal with it. It's really interesting because I had a case where they were dividing everything properly. I looked at the documents. Everything was properly executed. Then I said to both parties, because they were amicable, I said, "Look, it's really important for you guys to communicate and coordinate the timing of the exercise because the less taxes the employee will pay, the more it's going to go to your boss' pocket. Then that number will be higher, so it's in your best interest to communicate." What I suggested to do is, instead of exercising a lot in one year, split it over a three-year period. Their reaction was so interesting because the employee spouse said to me, "How come my advisor never suggested that? That makes all the sense in the world." I go, "Well, chances are he doesn't understand how it works."
Catherine Shanah...: Right.
Karen Chellew: Yeah.
Catherine Shanah...: Right.
Karen Chellew: I don't think it's that unusual, and I think, from my experience, because I'm typically over in the attorney's office with the clients, they're saying, "Well, we got this piece of paper from the other side, and so that's what we're using." That piece of paper can be completely missing a lot of documentation. It's routine that Catherine finds money that would've been just lost had we not dug in and said, "You really need this information to clarify the documentation that supports this data because that often is the missing piece."
Marianna Golden...: Yep.
Catherine Shanah...: Well, how about the client that we actually went to you for some advice on as well, your input? That attorney tells client, "Just go ahead and sell your RSUs and pay off your marital debt," and he ends up selling the non-marital portion to pay off the marital debt.
Marianna Golden...: Yep.
Catherine Shanah...: Crazy. Yeah.
Marianna Golden...: So common.
Karen Chellew: So, Marianna, do you see often where an employee spouse will work with their employer to change their compensation during divorce so that it's not on the table? Sometimes, I get that question, well, whether it's support or ED. I know we can cover that in another podcast. But, often, the non-employee spouse will say, "Well, can they change their compensation package so that this doesn't exist anymore or so that they're compensated in a different way that they don't have to share this with me?"
Marianna Golden...: That's a good question. I feel that it would be really near impossible to do it for a publicly traded company. Obviously, if you're in a really high C-suite position, maybe. But, generally, you don't. This is how the company does this. They want to tie their performance with the compensation they give you, so they as well, your compensation. But I do believe that it can be easily structured if it's non-public, if it's a private company, and they still issue this form of communication. It's probably easily manipulated.
Karen Chellew: Especially if they have a close relationship with their employer. Yeah.
Marianna Golden...: Exactly.
Catherine Shanah...: Right. Right.
Karen Chellew: Yeah.
Marianna Golden...: Yeah.
Karen Chellew: Wow.
Marianna Golden...: And that's why we need history. We need to see the pattern. Because it was never done before, then we know something's up, and so historical data is important just as the future data.
Karen Chellew: Right. Okay.
Catherine Shanah...: There's definitely a great follow-up podcast to this.
Marianna Golden...: Yeah.
Karen Chellew: Yeah. It's very complex. But it's complex for all parties involved, all professionals involved. It really takes a village to get to the bottom of a lot of these calculations and valuations. Yeah.
Marianna Golden...: A lot of times, knowing that's my area of expertise, the more complex, the better. I thrive on that. I would get a call from an attorney or a client who's not even a client say, "Hey, I was told you understand this. Here's the document. Can you just make sure we didn't miss anything, or can you interpret this for me?" So it's just a piece of information that they wanted to make sure that they're properly handling.
Karen Chellew: Yeah. Yeah. And-
Catherine Shanah...: That's great. Keep at it.
Karen Chellew: Yeah. All right.
Catherine Shanah...: Yeah. It's so needed. You got to keep this as your thing because-
Marianna Golden...: It's getting more and more popular.
Catherine Shanah...: Yes.
Karen Chellew: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Marianna Golden...: More and more companies, instead of doing cash compensation, do the performance type compensation.
Catherine Shanah...: Yeah, because it's lowering their turnover. It's so hard now to get employees and keep-
Marianna Golden...: …
Catherine Shanah...: Yeah. Yep.
Marianna Golden...: Yeah, because you give someone something today which they can't touch or feel, but if they stay for three or five years, all of a sudden, it becomes quite a sizable asset.
Catherine Shanah...: Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
Karen Chellew: Yeah.
Catherine Shanah...: All right. Well, we're going to have to chat again.
Marianna Golden...: Of course.
Catherine Shanah...: Thank you so much. This was great.
Marianna Golden...: Always a pleasure, ladies.
Catherine Shanah...: This is so good. You look fantastic. This is really good.
Marianna Golden...: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.