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S3 E2. LAND PART II – The Irish Potato Famine

 
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İçerik Alix Penn and Carmella Lowkis tarafından sağlanmıştır. Bölümler, grafikler ve podcast açıklamaları dahil tüm podcast içeriği doğrudan Alix Penn and Carmella Lowkis veya podcast platform ortağı tarafından yüklenir ve sağlanır. Birinin telif hakkıyla korunan çalışmanızı izniniz olmadan kullandığını düşünüyorsanız burada https://tr.player.fm/legal özetlenen süreci takip edebilirsiniz.

This week, Alix takes us on a tour of famine in Irish history, culminating in the infamous 19th century potato famine.

CREDITS

Written, hosted and produced by Alix Penn and Carmella Lowkis.

Theme music by Daniel Wackett. Find him on Twitter @ds_wack and Soundcloud as Daniel Wackett.

Logo by Riley. Find her on Twitter and Instagram @tallestfriend.

Casting Lots is part of the Morbid Audio Podcast Network. Network sting by Mikaela Moody. Find her on Bandcamp as mikaelamoody1.

BIBLIOGRAPHY

TRANSCRIPT

Alix: Have you ever been really, really hungry?

Carmella: You’re listening to Casting Lots: A Survival Cannibalism Podcast.

A: I’m Alix.

C: I’m Carmella.

A: And now let’s tuck into the gruesome history of this ultimate taboo…

[Intro Music – Daniel Wackett]

A: Welcome to Episode Two: The Irish Potato Famine.

[Intro music continues]

A: Now you know me, I love to start with a pithy anecdote. So, while researching this episode, I made my way over to Google. And while starting researching, one of those automated Google questions popped up, you know, ‘the other people searching this topic have also asked?’

C: Yes. Normally those people are not doing the same kind of research that we’re doing.

A: Yet. And one of those auto suggested questions was, ‘why didn’t the Irish eat other food during the potato famine?’

C: Okay, okay, I see where this is going.

A: So Carmela, would you like to learn about what other food was being eaten during the Great Irish potato famine of 1845 to 52?

C: I would love to hear that.

A: Excellent. Now, I’m going to start out by saying that I have some skin in this game, because I did one of those Ancestry DNA tests a few years ago.

C: Are you going to tell me you’re like 1/16 Irish?

A: Yes, I am. Like, I know that my spit is now in some database for the Mormons to baptise me after my death. (Aside) It’s a real thing. Look it up. The Mormons are obsessed with baptising dead people. That’s why they’re so into genetics.

C: Okay(!?)

A: Wrong podcast, but fun fact. Camilla’s mind is blown.

C: Huh. I may not get a DNA test, then. I want to go to hell as I deserve.

(Laughs)

A: Genetically speaking, I am really boring.

(Carmella laughs)

C: Is it like the bit of what we do in the shadows where his DNA test results just say ‘WHITE’?

A: Yes. I am 75% British and 25% Irish.

(Carmella laughs)

C: I’m not surprised by that at all.

A: My ancestry found this rainy Island and was like, fuck it, we live here now. I’ve got a tiny bit of Irish history in me somewhere. But mostly I just think it’s really interesting. But Irish history is complicated.

C: Oh, yeah.

A: So I’m going to try and sum up how we get to the Irish Potato Famine with some coherency-

C: Okay, quickfire Irish history. Here we go.

A: No promises about the coherency. But let’s start at the beginning. England starts messing around with Ireland so early that it’s technically still France when it happens.

(Carmella laughs)

A: Let’s speed run this.

C: Okay.

A: We’re starting with the Normans. Bill the bastard, arrow in the eye, all of that. After he conquers England, he turns to Ireland, which works out relatively well. We’re going with the sweeping generalisations here we have centuries to cover. But Ireland does all right up until the 14th Century.

C: And we all know the 14th Century was very tough on Europe.

A: When people in Ireland were, quote, “so destroyed by hunger that they extracted bodies of the dead from cemeteries, dug out the flesh from their skulls and ate it, and women ate their children out of hunger.”

C: I believe the reading that in the episode on the 14th century is what caused us to think that we should probably research this, right?

A: Ding, ding ding. But if you remember, just before we get to the cannibalism, the in that episode on the Great Famine, the border between England and Scotland was a little tense, lots of setting a fire of crops and Ireland gets in on that action too.

C: How very contemporary.

A: So stuff gets a bit difficult for everyone. And then there’s a plague. So Irish fortunes sort of turn around for a bit. And then there’s Henry the Eighth because we can’t go having a semi-independent Catholic nation right next door now, can we?

C: It just looks bad guys.

A: So all bureaucratic niceties are overridden. Ireland is reconquered. Henry is king of Ireland. But the Irish are officially allowed to represent themselves in Parliament. Yeah, but England’s in control. It all gets a bit (Alix laughs) a bit, messy around here, because now you have all sorts of different people who are identifying as various forms of Irish.

C: Hmm. Yeah.

A: You have the old Irish holding on to Gaelic traditions, language and culture, the predominant Catholic majority, the descendants of historic Norman settler families. They’ve been in Ireland for centuries, they’re also predominantly Roman Catholic, and they feel Irish. And then you have the Protestant, Anglo Irish who-

C: Are there as well.

A: They’re there as well. But because Ireland isn’t being treated very well by England, their loyalties are torn. And then there are the English overseers who are very English, but own everything.

C: Yeah, those guys.

A: And now, time for Oliver Cromwell.

C (Cockney, for some reason): Whoa, hey Cromwell, me old mate.

A: Famously. Cromwell is not Ireland’s mate.

(Carmella laughs)

C: I didn’t say Ireland’s mate, I said my mate.

A: Things are going a bit to shit in England, that whole Civil War thing. And Ireland’s not exactly stable. There are uprising revolts and massacres. And Cromwell comes over and reconquers Ireland. Again. It’s estimated that the Irish population dropped between 15 to 83% due to Cromwell’s actions in Ireland at this time.

C: Jeeeez Louise.

A: You can see why it’s a bit contested there being that statue of Cromwell outside parliament?

C: Yeah, I could see why maybe that would look like taunting.

A: Nee Nicky Ner Ner

C: Yeah.

A: But here we are in Ireland, after it’s been ransacked by Cromwell. Vast numbers of people have been shipped off. Quite literally, because indentured workers are sent to the colonies. And if the Catholics thought they were being treated badly before(?) Anyone with links to any of the uprisings has their land confiscated, and Ireland is yet again resettled by British colonists. These colonists are known as the Protestant Ascendancy. And things are about to get a lot worse for anyone who isn’t them.

C: Cool name for a group, but I don’t know – Protestant Ascendancy. It sounds cool.

A: Sounds like a band. Sounds like a folk band.

C: Really bad band.

A: I mean, I’m imagining them in the pub. That sort of level.

C: Sound, sounds like a pub band.

A: Pub band.

C: We are Protestant Ascendancy-

A: And we’re here with our smash hit ‘Penal Laws against the Catholics’.

(Carmella laughs)

A: The Protestant ascendancy don’t want the Catholic Irish, whether they’re Old Irish, or Catholic Irish descendants of previous settlers owning land, because last time, there was a revolt, and those people must be punished. So therefore, we have even harsher Penal Laws against the Catholic who still can’t represent themselves in Parliament or actually practice their faith.

C: And they just shouldn’t be Catholic, then should they obviously.

A: Spoken like a true member of the hit folk band, the Protestant ascendancy.

(Carmella laughs)

A: So we’ve hit the 17th Century where it’s still 200 years off, and everyone is already a little bit pissed off. But don’t worry, things can get worse.

C: Things can always get worse here at Casting Lots.

A: Now, I don’t know if you remember the Little Ice Age that helped to kick off the European famine in the 14th Century?

C (in an old man voice): I remember it. Well. I was there as a child.

A: It’s still kicking around in the 17th.

C: ’s a Big Ice Age(!)

A: Remember all those lovely frost fairs?

C: Oohhh, of course.

A: I mean, when was the last time the Thames froze over? Climate change. Welcome to the Year Of Slaughter.

C: Oh, this sounds like a year that I can get behind.

A: 1740-1741, an estimated 13 to 20% of the Irish population, a mere 1.4 million starve to death.

C: That’s a lot of people.

A: Now, I read a fabulous paper called ‘Eating people is wrong: Famine’s darkest secret?’ question mark.

C: I would disagree heavily with that title. But okay.

A: And this was surprisingly about cannibalism and famines. And I’m going to trust the conclusions of the author, that there was no evidence of cannibalism during this particular famine, mostly because he’s an Irish scholar with more sources than I do.

C: Yup, let’s follow on that one, then.

A: But this does not mean, there is not other evidence that cannibalism was on people’s minds. Through the 18th century, we have another famine. There’d been a famine in 1728 to 1730 and in 1729, an anonymous writer published a pamphlet, and this pamphlet draws attention to the plight of the poor Irish, and made somewhat of a modest proposal, which could help abate people suffering.

C: I think I may have heard of this modest proposal.

A (clears throat) : “A young healthy child well nursed, is, at a year old, a most delicious nourishing and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricasee, or a ragoust. A child will make two dishes at an entertainment for friends, and when the family dines alone, the fore or hind quarter will make a reasonable dish, and seasoned with a little pepper or salt, will be very good boiled on the fourth day, especially in winter. Infant’s flesh will be in season throughout the year, but more plentiful in March, and a little before and after; I can think of no one objection, that will possibly be raised against this proposal, unless it should be urged, that the number of people will be thereby much lessened in the kingdom.”

C: It’s like the Nigella Lawson of cannibalism writing,

A: Mee-cro-wah-vay.

(Carmella laughs)

A: Now allegedly, this was set in the spirit of satire to try and shock people into acknowledging the plight of the starving Irish. But it doesn’t make cannibalism in the case of famine, any less true.

C: It also sounds very much like something that one of us would just say.

(Alix snorts)

A: I’m not sure we can be compared to Jonathan Swift.

(Carmella laughs)

C: You know, I’m just very modest.

(Alix laughs)

A: Get out. Anyway, okay. Where was I? Ireland, we’re speeding our way through the 18th century into the 19th. And hello, it’s the Act of Union in 1801.

C: Hello, Act of Union.

A: This in theory means that the people of Ireland are on a par with the English, Welsh and Scottish.

C: In theory…

A: We’re all one big happy country. I mean, we’re not one big happy country now. So why we thought that was going to work in 1801…

C: Was it a case of thinking it would work or of hoping that if you say it was the case, people would just have to go along with it?

A: I think the latter. Despite everything however, the Catholic rural population is growing. Even as Anglo-Irish landlords start the process of land enclosure, limiting land holding of the majority. The Protestant ascendancy own 95% of all Irish land.

C: Wow.

A: And also say hello to some economic agricultural history, we are going to shift our way from meat production, to growing grain for export for Anglo Irish, and plain Anglo profit.

C: Classic.

A: Ireland is known as the breadbasket of Britain for how much food to exports to the mainland each year. But amid all of this export, there is a slight problem-

C: Is that there’s no food left in Ireland.

A: Yes. People need to feed themselves. This is where it gets a little bit. This is where it gets complicated! It’s been complicated since 1066. Most people, clearly, don’t own their own land, with 75% of land being owned by the ascendancy. According to according to “the Reports from the Poor Law Inspectors on the Wages of Agricultural Labourers in Dublin 1870”

C: Sounds like a thrilling read.

A: My research is always…

(Laughs)

C: It is always!

A: Continuous, never ending. Quote, “Previous to the famine, the labourer enjoyed his cabin … with a rood, or half-acre or acre of land, and facilities for … a crop” Because tenant farmers working for landowners often weren’t paid in currency. They worked in exchange for being allowed to farm a poor area of farmland for themselves. A minimal space and there’s only really one crop that can sustain a whole family.

C: Potatoes?

A: The potato. Carmela looked like she was not confident that the main crop of this episode was the potato.

(Laughs)

C: I thought it was a trick question.

A: No, it’s the potato. We have reached the potato of the famine. Just so we can get it out of our system before we get going. After that speed run of Irish history. Carmella, what’s the name of the Blight that caused the Irish potato famine?

C: The English.

A: Okay, we’ve got that out of our system. We all knew it was coming. I in fact, had that written into the script even before I started researching because I knew we were going to make that joke.

(Carmella laughs)

A: I mean, you know wrong. This is a prime episode for slagging off the English-

C: Ourselves.

A: Yeah, it was like it’s a valid pastime. Bit masochistic, but deserved. Let us start with the Blight itself. It’s not just the English, but it’s a common pathogen called Phytophthora infestans HERB-1.

C: Hmm Easy to say, memorable, catchy.

A: Don’t ask me what it means. It is apparently an oomycete. Ooh-might-see? I don’t know. But if you’d like to get your hands on some, a specimen is still kept at Kew Gardens.

C: Oh, just in case?

A: It seems like the recipe for disaster to me.

C: It’s breached containment! Argh.

A: The Blight travels across the Atlantic from where it originates in South America. And in the summer of 1845 it hits Europe. Irish farmers notice dark splotches on the leaves of their potato plants. And when the potatoes were pulled from the ground, they were quote, “shrunken mushy and inedible.”

C: Hmm.

A: My cooking. In the first year 1845. Harvest yields were cut in half. By 1846 that was down to a quarter. Blight has a smell. People could sense the rotting under their feet.

C: Ugh.

A: A third of the crop was completely destroyed. And I know I keep harking back to season two episode three. But if we remember Alix’s fun discussion about crop yields.

C: Yes, I remember it so well.

A: You frequently replay it to yourself. Farmers know exactly how much of a crop they can afford to lose, some to sell some to eat some to replant and a buffer for failed crops. So, this diminishing return is already spelling out disaster for the people of Ireland. Or do I mean the Irish of Ireland?

C: Yes.

A: Because the Anglo Irish and in some cases the out English landlords and landowners are still keen to turn a profit. It’s not really a hands-on job being a landlord, you can get your middlemen to collect the rent, get someone else to deal with the labourers be an the absentee landlord and have money sent out to you.

C: Yeah, if there’s 30% of the crop last, just sell all of that. Who needs to eat right? Is that what they’re thinking?

A: Today’s episode is sponsored by absentee landlordism.

(Laughs)

A: Question. You’re at the beginning of a famine. You’re a farmer.

C: Okay.

A: You have minimal crop returns.

C: Hmmhmm.

A: What are you going to do with them? eat them, plant them or sell them. You can only do one.

C: The most sensible thing to do would be to plant them.

A: In the middle of a blight?

C: Hmm, true.

A: This one is a trick question. It’s lose/lose.

C: Yeah. If you sell them, you’ll have some money, but there might not be crops to purchase. If you eat them, they’re gone. If you plant them, they might get blighted. Hmm. I think, I think I’m probably going to eat my family is that an option?

(Laughs)

A: Said so casually. It’s worth noting that it’s not just in Ireland that this is happening. The potato crop across Europe is being affected. Belgium, Prussia, Netherlands and France are all being hit by the potato blight. But no other population in Europe is as dependent on the potato as the Irish. Now, I know it’s sort of a joke at this point 200 and so years on, but it really is a matter of life and death. And oh, boy, are we coming to the death.

A: In the name of balance? I went on the UK government’s website to-

C: Oh, ho, ho do please tell me what they had to say.

A: They have a history section. And, quote, “a high proportion of Irish MPs were landowners, all their sons. Parliament was fully aware of the situation.” Yes, you would, one would hope so considering the lives of people in the British Empire…

C: Does aware of mean the same thing is affected by, caring about, doing something about?

A: To begin with? Sort of.

C: Okay.

A: There was an attempt. The Tories, I know.

C: Those guys.

A: Yeah, those guys try and bring in food from overseas and Public Works and relief efforts are set up. Robert Peel tries to sneak things in around the advocates for the free market.

C: Oh!

A: Yeah. There is an attempt. I mean, this is done in the belief that the famine will be over quickly, and it won’t cost a lot of money.

C: Oh, I’ve seen that kind of optimism from the UK government before.

A: Oh, just wait. Just you wait. The problem isn’t necessarily that there’s no food in Ireland, it’s that it’s too expensive for the poor to afford those who rely on the potato as their main crop. Technically, various grains can still be exported, because (posh English voice) well there’s a free market.

A: Now, this hasn’t always happened in other famines, even other famines in Ireland, the Year of Slaughter, for example, ports were closed, keeping Irish grown food inside the country. This leads to a drop in food prices and helps abate starvation.

C: Yeah, yeah, it makes sense.

A: Yeah, not this time. Let’s talk about the Corn Laws.

C: Oh, you know what? Corn Laws is one of those things where I’ve heard the word many times in my life and often thought to myself, I must find out precisely what that means, and never have. So Alix, please educate me on the details of the corn laws.

A: I literally have just a note in my script here being like, I’m sorry, I’m so boring.

(Carmella laughs)

A: But corn laws restrict the amount of foreign grain that can be imported into a country. The idea is to make sure that homegrown food is readily available and not undercut by cheaper imported grain.

C: That makes sense.

A: This can artificially keep the price of bread and other grain grids high. That isn’t really helping the poorest in society.

C: Yeah, okay. I get you.

A: Especially during a famine.

C: So, to recap, the limit on the amount of grain you can import has remained in place despite there being a famine.

A: Robert Peel wants to repeal these laws. Repeal. (Carmella: Yeah.) Peel. Repeal. (Carmella: Yeah) That’s really funny. But this idea, err, pisses people off.

C: Which people?

A (posh voice): The economy people!

C: Those ones, I thought it might not be pissing off the people who were like starving to death.

A: No, they have quite different fiscal aims than say the Treasury.

C: Yeah.

A: Robert Peel’s efforts to repeal the Corn Laws – and he had really been trying. He bought £100,000 worth of sweet corn-

C (like a child being forced to eat vegetables): I hate sweet corn.

A: If you are starving to death you will eat sweet corn.

C: Hmm.

A: It goes potato, human flesh, sweetcorn in Carmella’s triangle of food needs.

C: Yeah.

A: He brings in a sweetcorn ration. He has these relief committees set up to distribute it in Ireland, and has public work projects set up. Now these projects I mentioned earlier, they’re not great. You have to do hard labour in order to qualify to be paid mid-famine.

C: Hmm.

A: And you’re then paying for imported corn. But it’s better than not doing anything.

C: Yeah, it’s a low bar, but you’ve got to be able to step over it.

A: And when he tries to have these Corn Laws repealed, err he gets ousted. He’s gone.

C: You don’t want to mess with the economy.

A: I will say this for Peel. I feel like I’m on a really strong Robert Peel vibe here. I’m not because oh my god, wait for the politicians that follow then you’ll understand.

C: Ah, I see best of a bad bunch.

A: Yeah. On record no one dies due to famine in the winter of 1845.

C: And that’s when Peel’s doing stuff?

A: That’s when Peel’s doing stuff. Goes to show even conditional relief efforts save lives. Who knew?

C: Well done Peel.

A: So this isn’t to last. Peel’s gone. New government’s in and the new government are believers in the laissez-faire economic model.

C: Oh, that one.

A: Who gives a shit it will just sort itself out eventually won’t it.

(Carmella laughs)

A: Famines don’t last more than a year, oh whatever. 1846 the first year of sustained famine, people have already sold all that can be sold, scavenged what can be scavenged and stolen the remains. There are deaths on a significant scale by that winter. All of the big hitters when it comes to famine disease, they’re out to play. We’ve got typhoid, we’ve got fever. And these deaths are still marking the landscape of Ireland. There are mass unmarked graves for the tens of thousands who died during this time. But don’t worry, I can see you look concerned Carmella.

C: I’m sure it’s all going to get better now.

A: Alix, I hear you cry. What about the English economy?

C: What about the English economy? I’m so glad you’ve asked.

A: We’re so worried about the English economy. Even though English officials by this time in 1846 are saying the Ireland in trouble. But don’t worry, Sir Randolph Routh, and then I’m going to do an obnoxious awful accent for him. Don’t worry.

C: I’m sure he deserves it.

A: He is the Chair of the Relief Commission. He sees this whole famine thing as an opportunity.

C: Hmm, career development.

A: Worse than that. (Obnoxious awful English accent) “The little industry called for to rear the potato, and its prolific growth, lead the people to indolence and all kinds of vice, which habitual labour and a higher order of food would prevent. I think it very probable that we may derive much advantage from this present calamity.”

C: Ah, so potatoes made Irish people lazy. And if they all die of the famine, they won’t be lazy anymore.

A: I think they’d be significantly lazier. Because they’d be dead.

C: Yeah. Wow. That’s some. It certainly is a take that he’s got there.

A: So, he’s in charge of the relief commission. I’m sure you won’t be surprised to hear that relief efforts are halted.

(Carmella laughs)

C: Well, you know, you’ve got to make them motivate themselves.

A: Parliament legislate to put the responsibility for Famine Relief on to Irish landowners.

C: Ah.

A: Because why should the English pay for it? Let’s ignore the Act of Union and we’re all one big happy country now.

C: And the fact that the English have been making the most money off of the Irish for this time.

A: I don’t know what you possibly mean. So those Irish landowners, Anglo Irish and Irish, are in turn trying to save money by evicting their tenants. Tenants who, for the most part, aren’t getting paid, but have land rights and the ability to sustain themselves from their own harvest.

C: Hmm.

A: Or rather had. But don’t worry, grain is still being exported out of the country for profit.

C: Oh, you’ve got to have these constant check ins on how the English economy is doing? Because I’m just so concerned.

A: Now this is a bit of a sore point, because as we covered earlier, it isn’t necessarily just the absence of food that’s causing the issue, but the inability to access it.

C: Yes.

A: There are arguments about the ethics and logistics of export and protecting the economy and the cost of human lives. Now, doesn’t that sound familiar from the British government?

C: Oh, yeah.

A: If there’s no financial incentive to produce them, why would farmers keep farming? Technically more food is imported into Ireland between 1845 and 46, then is exported. But food coming in isn’t necessarily being used to feed the hungry. It’s being used to feed livestock for export. And ironically, some food had to be exported, to pay the rates levied to support those affected by the famine, following the act of Parliament.

C: Love that, love that. You know, sometimes when people explain to me all of various import and export and border laws, it’s like, how did we break the world so much? This is, this is all made up, right? The economy is not real guys.

A: I know. It’s madness. Following 1847 all Famine Relief has to be paid for for taxes raised in Ireland, the Irish economy has to somehow keep going to levy the funds to pay for its own relief.

C: It’s all made up. Astrology for men.

A: Astrology for men. Sir Charles Trevelyan, Assistant Secretary to the Treasury actually cuts the pay for those who are in the Public Works programmes.

C: Great.

A: And those programmes actually close in 1847 as well. He calls the famine. Are you ready for this?

C: Oh boy. What does he call the famine Alix?

A: “The judgement of God to teach the Irish a lesson”

(A faint boom of thunder picked up by the microphone.)

C: Is that, thunder?

A: I think that was thunder. That was impressively timed!

(Carmella laughs)

C: Is the lesson that the English are bad?

A: Yeah, yeah, that’s pretty much the essence of what God has taught the Irish. Poor Laws are altered to ensure that only the most destitute can receive any aid at all. There’s a vote in parliament that in order to qualify for Famine Relief, you have to forfeit your land.

C: Hum. That really seems like there’s an ulterior motive going on there.

A: This leads to starving farmers giving over the land, which is their wages, back to their landlords before they receive any assistance. People are being evicted for profit being evicted to pay their own famine relief. Now, hashtag not all landlords.

(Carmella cackles)

A: There are some people who don’t evict their tenants and don’t burn down their houses and do forgive rents.

C: Oh, wow. Every, you know-

A: Heroes!

C: Heroes, exactly.

A: They’re not exactly in the majority. Up to half a million people are evicted. Guess who’s getting richer and who was getting poorer?

C: Hmm. I’m gonna say the Anglo-Irish landlords are getting richer. And the Irish workers are getting poorer.

A: Yes. 10 points to Carmella.

C: Thank you. It was a difficult question. But I got there in the end.

A: Strangely enough, by 1847 The English are getting a bit concerned that Irish nationalism might, you know, rise up people might start taking offence or what’s going on in their country. There might be another of those violent rebellions. So here come the military.

C: Oh, great, great let’s wheel those guys in, love them.

A: But before things get worse, I would like to point out just as we’ve seen in some other cases, some people are good.

C: A bold statement from Alix here at Casting Lots.

(Alix laughs)

A: There are charitable endeavours, Catholic priests, Protestant charity workers and Quakers all start up private relief efforts. Okay, there are some instances of convert to my religion or starve to death.

C: Classic =.

A: Religion is still a bit of a sore subject in Ireland. understatement, I think.

(Carmella laughs)

A: But for the most part, these charitable efforts are altruistic. There are donations from around the world. The Irish diaspora in America send over a million dollars’ worth of food, the Choctaw and Cherokee Nation’s, despite their own poverty, donate $800. There’s quite a famous memorial to this in Ireland in Cork, the Queen Victoria appeal raises £100,700, the Tsar of Russia, the Sultan of Turkey all donate money to the Irish cause. The pope calls on Catholics around the world to help the Irish, the French people donate £50,000.

C: Great that everyone else is doing the charity work that England should probably just be trying to do.

A: None of this is enough. There is however, a brief moment in 1847 where it looks like look, not that things will be okay but that things might not be getting worse.

C: Like we’re plateauing.

A: Exactly, you know, if we can just keep going, maybe things won’t continue to go downhill.

C: Hmmhmm.

A: Even though Mr “God’s teaching the Irish a lesson” Trevelyan closes down the public works scheme, there are soup kitchens that are opened up in the spring of ‘47. These relatively cheaply feed 3 million people a day.

C: That’s pretty successful.

A: These are paid for via loans. That Ireland is expected to pay back.

C: Oh, yeah. Yeah, there we go. That sounds more like it.

C: But that year, blight doesn’t return to the harvest. So, it’s a bad harvest after two years of famine, there’s not enough yield, people are starving and weaken and poor, thousands have been evicted from their homes. But that is a harvest.

C: Hmmhmm.

A: With a bit of support. Perhaps things could get back to some sort of normality.

C: Now because I know what podcasts this is, I’m going to assume that’s not the way things go down.

A: Things could get better, or the famine could be declared officially over by the summer of 1847. All relief measures are cancelled. Go fend for yourselves.

C: I think the second one is what happened.

(Wry laugher)

A: Welcome to Black 47.

C: Catchy

A: The Irish are quite good at coming up with names for these things. I still quite like the Year of Slaughter.

C: Yeah.

A: Thousands of people are evicted, whole villages and settlements just disappear. People beg to enter workhouses. People are dying quote “with hunger.” And then the blight returns and returns.

C: That must just be like a real blow. I can’t even imagine how horrible that must feel. To be serious for a moment.

(Wry laugher)

A: The food crisis only ends in Ireland in 1852. And the ramifications of the Great Hunger are still felt today.

C: Hmm.

A: One in eight people on the island of Ireland die during the famine. And we’ve only just gotten started. But Alix, you’ve been talking for hours and haven’t even got to the cannibalism yet.

C: 50 minutes actually.

A: Oh, well. I’ll keep going then.

(Carmella laughs)

A: And in part, that’s deliberate, because we might have talked about it before in terms of disasters, but there’s something called ‘famine fatigue’, and it denotes the end of interest and compassion in a continuous disaster, because these donations and charity support to support the struggling Irish in 1846 and 47, start to dry up by ‘48 and ‘49. And I’m bringing that fatigue here. Because it’s during the ‘famine fatigue’ the ‘isn’t this over yet mentality’ that some of the worst events take place.

Now, there is a reason this episode is in season three. And I’m sure we’re going to come across this more and more as we delve into the less cited sources of survival cannibalism, but to be honest, our sources are getting paltry and thinner.

And yes, I am ashamed of the fact I wrote that sentence without thinking so I included in the script so I could call myself out self awareness, that was inappropriate.

(Carmella laughs)

A: The vast majority of our sources for survival cannibalism during the Irish potato famine are anecdotal. And it’s worth remembering that the vast majority of the most devastated populations were illiterate. First-hand testimony from survivors would have been in Gaelic as opposed to in English. We are predominantly reliant on the words of the clergy and those acting for charitable reasons to record stories of survival cannibalism, which they encountered. These people will have their own reasons for including or not including what they’ve seen.

A: While we may consider survival cannibalism, almost conventional in the nineteenth century

C: We have a skewed world view.

A: I do worry about us sometimes. It is worth noting that for the English survival cannibalism is predominately something that is associated with unprecedented disaster at sea or even worse… the French.

(Carmella cackles)

A: Am I wrong?

C: You speak true.

A: It’s not something that should be happening in the British Empire to British citizens under the direct control of Parliament. And yet, there are sources which indicate that survival cannibalism was one of the methods used by the starving and destitute Irish to try and save themselves.

I know it’s a bit ‘The Purge’ but people don’t necessarily behave brilliantly in life-or-death situations.

C: Fair enough.

A: Radical statement to make. I know. There were over 20,000 reported crimes in Ireland in 1848 alone.

C: I mean you sort of have to do what you have to do to get by, right? At that point.

A: Violence, desertion, murder. And, when people are starving, as we know, people are reduced to eating the sustenance that barely registers as food – we have examples of people eating bark and grass and – those two were really neutral and the final one in my list is horrific, and putrefying emaciated farm animals…. It’s quite a shopping list.

C: Hmm.

A: Dr Breandan Mac Suibhne, author of The End of Outrage, says, “to eat food that is sub-human is an index of how you have yourself been reduced, but the ultimate is that you end up eating another human being.”

C: I mean, I get where he’s coming from but seems a bit… judgemental. I dunno, like that’s the most degrading and inhuman thing you can ever do really-

A: I didn’t that it that way. (C: Okay) I took it is as the concept of ‘subhuman food’ as is the bark and the grass (C: Yeah) and it shows, that showing how you’ve been reduced in terms of your personhood.

C: Yeah.

A: I mean we don’t advocate cannibalism for the sake of it.

C: Yeah.

A: Like, something has had to go very badly wrong for you and your situation.

A: There are recorded instances of survival cannibalism in counties Cork, Kerry, Galway and Mayo in Ireland from 1847 onwards. Granted these are rare, but they are also, crucially for us, witnessed and attested to.

C: Hmm. Ha! Crucially for your scripts Alix!

(Laughs)

A: What can I say, I like facts?

(Laughs)

A: Father Peter Ward, a parish priest in County Mayo – wrote to his archbishop of a scene he’d come across in Drimcaggy: “In the village of Drimcaggy four were dead together in a poor hut- brother, two sisters, and daughter. The flesh was torn off the daughter’s arm and mangled in the mouth of her poor dead mother”

“William Walsh, of Mount Partree, and his son were found dead together, their flesh was torn off their dead bodies […] flesh was found in their mouths. His wife and child died the week before of hunger.”

This is what happens during famine. We know this. We know this now, and it was known then. It was known in Ireland, and it was known in Westminster.

C: Yes. But did Westminster do anything about that?

A: We already know the answer to that and it’s ‘go and deal with it yourselves God’s made his judgement.’

C: That’s interesting though that both of those scenes describe bodies being found dead with flesh in their mouth, that’s very odd. Do you think that’s been written for effect and isn’t to be taken literally or is that literal? It seems like surely the point that you’d die of starvation would be after flesh had run out, not when it was literally in your mouth.

A: But if you’re so weak that you’re unable to-

C: Swallow it and digest it?

A: Yeah.

C: Yeah.

A: Cause there comes a point where-

C: Yeah, you can’t recover. Maybe.

A: In May 1849 Reverend James Anderson wrote to the prime minister Lord John Russell, telling of a starving man who had eaten the heart and liver from a ship-wrecked corpse quote, “and that was the maddening feast on which he regaled himself and his family”. This open letter was reported in the press and was even raised in the House of Commons by the MP for Kerry.

C: I mean I understand that it sounds quite gruesome but I mean it like, he’s already dead and you don’t even know him. I think on the tiers of survival cannibalism that one’s less horrible than the ones where you eat your own children.

A: True. But I am going to erm, reference back to that conversation we had, I think off recording, that we have a slightly warped scale.

C: Yep. That’s true, yes, sorry, you’re right. That’s also unpleasant.

A: Things don’t change in Ireland. In fact, Queen Victoria goes to Ireland in 1849 because “everything’s fine now”.

C: Oh I bet everyone really appreciated her visiting.

A: Charles Trevelyan gets a knighthood.

C: Aw, well, I mean he was so correct in all of his opinions.

A: Well, it’s a job well done isn’t it?

C: Famine’s over.

A: You can try and fix the problem, or you can stick your fingers in your ears and pretend that the problem has already resolved itself. Naming no British governments-

(Carmella laughs)

A: But it certainly seems like this is a popular strategy that has remerged in the 21st Century. Now, this is going to be a bit of a curve ball for you, but to quote Karl Marx-

C: Okay, never gonna say no to this.

A: “The Irish famine of 1846 killed more than 1,000,000 people but it killed poor devils only. To the wealth of the country it did not the slightest damage.”

C: Is that true? I feel like it probably impacted their economy?

A: Yeah it was exaggerated a bit for effect. I think Karl Marx did have perhaps an angle that he was going for?

C: He has, yeah, skin in that game.

A: But, over a million people die that is true. The population of nearly every town is halved. Another near two million people emigrate. There is the destruction of a whole culture, community, and people. Some argue that the famine was technically genocide, but as a legal construct the fact that the famine (and its lack of management) targeted entire social group targeted because of their class as opposed to their ethnicity or religion it doesn’t meet the modern criteria for what constitutes a genocide. But Professor Brendan O’Leary of the University of Pennsylvania puts forward that the management of the Irish Famine may not be genocide but it is “geno-slaughter”.

C: Yes it sounds like there’s a lot of ‘on a technicalities’ in there and when you’re talking about mass killing on that scale is quibbling over technicalities really the way to go?

A: It’s hard to deny that the British government saw this natural famine as somewhat of a good thing in cases.

C: I mean they literally stated that so.

A: Yeah, yeah. You can try and deny it but I’ve got it written down.

(Carmella laughs)

A: Heard it on a podcast, come on guys! Now we’d be here for the rest of time if I tried to continue Irish history up to the modern day.

C: And into the future!

A: And into the future, the recording never stops.

(Carmella laughs)

C: Just real time.

A: But the impact of the famine can still be seen throughout modern Irish history especially within the nineteenth and twentieth century rise of Irish nationalism, and development of the Gaelic revival in Irish culture. Prominent Irish republicans had been children of the famine with memories of their families’ evictions and the famine is a galvanising concept for a free Ireland. What have the British ever done for us anyway?

C: Good question.

A: It’s a good question for us as well.

A: With this whistlestop tour of Irish history you can see how the famine can be perceived as the final straw, that everything has been building up to something. And it’s only 70 years after the famine that the Anglo-Irish treaty is signed, and the Republic of Ireland comes into existence. I mean that’s not the end of the troubles in Ireland-

C: Oh no!

A: But we are not the podcast to delve further into that. I’ll end with this, we are only six generations away from those who suffered and died in Ireland today.

[Outro Music – Daniel Wackett]

C: Thank you for listening to Episode 2 on the Irish Potato Famine, or the Great Hunger. We like to keep things cheerful here.

A: Join us next time, where we’re putting Carmella’s Spanish pronunciation to the test.

[Outro music continues]

A: Casting Lots Podcast can be found on Twitter, Instagram and Tumblr as @CastingLotsPod, and on Facebook as Casting Lots Podcast.

C: If you enjoyed this episode and want to hear more, don’t forget to subscribe to us on iTunes, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, and please rate, review and share to bring more people to the table.

A: Casting Lots: A Survival Cannibalism Podcast, is researched, written and recorded by Alix and Carmella, with post-production and editing also by Carmella and Alix. Art and logo design by Riley – @Tallestfriend on Twitter and Instagram – with audio and music by Daniel Wackett – Daniel Wackett on SoundCloud and @ds_wack on Twitter. Casting Lots is part of the Morbid Audio Podcast Network – search #MorbidAudio on Twitter – and the network’s music is provided by Mikaela Moody – mikaelamoody1 on Bandcamp.

[Morbid Audio Sting – Mikaela Moody]

A: Do you wanna make a joke about potatoes?

C: No! I do not!

(Alix cackles)

C: Note the absence of Irish accents in this episode!

(Carmella laughs)

  continue reading

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İçerik Alix Penn and Carmella Lowkis tarafından sağlanmıştır. Bölümler, grafikler ve podcast açıklamaları dahil tüm podcast içeriği doğrudan Alix Penn and Carmella Lowkis veya podcast platform ortağı tarafından yüklenir ve sağlanır. Birinin telif hakkıyla korunan çalışmanızı izniniz olmadan kullandığını düşünüyorsanız burada https://tr.player.fm/legal özetlenen süreci takip edebilirsiniz.

This week, Alix takes us on a tour of famine in Irish history, culminating in the infamous 19th century potato famine.

CREDITS

Written, hosted and produced by Alix Penn and Carmella Lowkis.

Theme music by Daniel Wackett. Find him on Twitter @ds_wack and Soundcloud as Daniel Wackett.

Logo by Riley. Find her on Twitter and Instagram @tallestfriend.

Casting Lots is part of the Morbid Audio Podcast Network. Network sting by Mikaela Moody. Find her on Bandcamp as mikaelamoody1.

BIBLIOGRAPHY

TRANSCRIPT

Alix: Have you ever been really, really hungry?

Carmella: You’re listening to Casting Lots: A Survival Cannibalism Podcast.

A: I’m Alix.

C: I’m Carmella.

A: And now let’s tuck into the gruesome history of this ultimate taboo…

[Intro Music – Daniel Wackett]

A: Welcome to Episode Two: The Irish Potato Famine.

[Intro music continues]

A: Now you know me, I love to start with a pithy anecdote. So, while researching this episode, I made my way over to Google. And while starting researching, one of those automated Google questions popped up, you know, ‘the other people searching this topic have also asked?’

C: Yes. Normally those people are not doing the same kind of research that we’re doing.

A: Yet. And one of those auto suggested questions was, ‘why didn’t the Irish eat other food during the potato famine?’

C: Okay, okay, I see where this is going.

A: So Carmela, would you like to learn about what other food was being eaten during the Great Irish potato famine of 1845 to 52?

C: I would love to hear that.

A: Excellent. Now, I’m going to start out by saying that I have some skin in this game, because I did one of those Ancestry DNA tests a few years ago.

C: Are you going to tell me you’re like 1/16 Irish?

A: Yes, I am. Like, I know that my spit is now in some database for the Mormons to baptise me after my death. (Aside) It’s a real thing. Look it up. The Mormons are obsessed with baptising dead people. That’s why they’re so into genetics.

C: Okay(!?)

A: Wrong podcast, but fun fact. Camilla’s mind is blown.

C: Huh. I may not get a DNA test, then. I want to go to hell as I deserve.

(Laughs)

A: Genetically speaking, I am really boring.

(Carmella laughs)

C: Is it like the bit of what we do in the shadows where his DNA test results just say ‘WHITE’?

A: Yes. I am 75% British and 25% Irish.

(Carmella laughs)

C: I’m not surprised by that at all.

A: My ancestry found this rainy Island and was like, fuck it, we live here now. I’ve got a tiny bit of Irish history in me somewhere. But mostly I just think it’s really interesting. But Irish history is complicated.

C: Oh, yeah.

A: So I’m going to try and sum up how we get to the Irish Potato Famine with some coherency-

C: Okay, quickfire Irish history. Here we go.

A: No promises about the coherency. But let’s start at the beginning. England starts messing around with Ireland so early that it’s technically still France when it happens.

(Carmella laughs)

A: Let’s speed run this.

C: Okay.

A: We’re starting with the Normans. Bill the bastard, arrow in the eye, all of that. After he conquers England, he turns to Ireland, which works out relatively well. We’re going with the sweeping generalisations here we have centuries to cover. But Ireland does all right up until the 14th Century.

C: And we all know the 14th Century was very tough on Europe.

A: When people in Ireland were, quote, “so destroyed by hunger that they extracted bodies of the dead from cemeteries, dug out the flesh from their skulls and ate it, and women ate their children out of hunger.”

C: I believe the reading that in the episode on the 14th century is what caused us to think that we should probably research this, right?

A: Ding, ding ding. But if you remember, just before we get to the cannibalism, the in that episode on the Great Famine, the border between England and Scotland was a little tense, lots of setting a fire of crops and Ireland gets in on that action too.

C: How very contemporary.

A: So stuff gets a bit difficult for everyone. And then there’s a plague. So Irish fortunes sort of turn around for a bit. And then there’s Henry the Eighth because we can’t go having a semi-independent Catholic nation right next door now, can we?

C: It just looks bad guys.

A: So all bureaucratic niceties are overridden. Ireland is reconquered. Henry is king of Ireland. But the Irish are officially allowed to represent themselves in Parliament. Yeah, but England’s in control. It all gets a bit (Alix laughs) a bit, messy around here, because now you have all sorts of different people who are identifying as various forms of Irish.

C: Hmm. Yeah.

A: You have the old Irish holding on to Gaelic traditions, language and culture, the predominant Catholic majority, the descendants of historic Norman settler families. They’ve been in Ireland for centuries, they’re also predominantly Roman Catholic, and they feel Irish. And then you have the Protestant, Anglo Irish who-

C: Are there as well.

A: They’re there as well. But because Ireland isn’t being treated very well by England, their loyalties are torn. And then there are the English overseers who are very English, but own everything.

C: Yeah, those guys.

A: And now, time for Oliver Cromwell.

C (Cockney, for some reason): Whoa, hey Cromwell, me old mate.

A: Famously. Cromwell is not Ireland’s mate.

(Carmella laughs)

C: I didn’t say Ireland’s mate, I said my mate.

A: Things are going a bit to shit in England, that whole Civil War thing. And Ireland’s not exactly stable. There are uprising revolts and massacres. And Cromwell comes over and reconquers Ireland. Again. It’s estimated that the Irish population dropped between 15 to 83% due to Cromwell’s actions in Ireland at this time.

C: Jeeeez Louise.

A: You can see why it’s a bit contested there being that statue of Cromwell outside parliament?

C: Yeah, I could see why maybe that would look like taunting.

A: Nee Nicky Ner Ner

C: Yeah.

A: But here we are in Ireland, after it’s been ransacked by Cromwell. Vast numbers of people have been shipped off. Quite literally, because indentured workers are sent to the colonies. And if the Catholics thought they were being treated badly before(?) Anyone with links to any of the uprisings has their land confiscated, and Ireland is yet again resettled by British colonists. These colonists are known as the Protestant Ascendancy. And things are about to get a lot worse for anyone who isn’t them.

C: Cool name for a group, but I don’t know – Protestant Ascendancy. It sounds cool.

A: Sounds like a band. Sounds like a folk band.

C: Really bad band.

A: I mean, I’m imagining them in the pub. That sort of level.

C: Sound, sounds like a pub band.

A: Pub band.

C: We are Protestant Ascendancy-

A: And we’re here with our smash hit ‘Penal Laws against the Catholics’.

(Carmella laughs)

A: The Protestant ascendancy don’t want the Catholic Irish, whether they’re Old Irish, or Catholic Irish descendants of previous settlers owning land, because last time, there was a revolt, and those people must be punished. So therefore, we have even harsher Penal Laws against the Catholic who still can’t represent themselves in Parliament or actually practice their faith.

C: And they just shouldn’t be Catholic, then should they obviously.

A: Spoken like a true member of the hit folk band, the Protestant ascendancy.

(Carmella laughs)

A: So we’ve hit the 17th Century where it’s still 200 years off, and everyone is already a little bit pissed off. But don’t worry, things can get worse.

C: Things can always get worse here at Casting Lots.

A: Now, I don’t know if you remember the Little Ice Age that helped to kick off the European famine in the 14th Century?

C (in an old man voice): I remember it. Well. I was there as a child.

A: It’s still kicking around in the 17th.

C: ’s a Big Ice Age(!)

A: Remember all those lovely frost fairs?

C: Oohhh, of course.

A: I mean, when was the last time the Thames froze over? Climate change. Welcome to the Year Of Slaughter.

C: Oh, this sounds like a year that I can get behind.

A: 1740-1741, an estimated 13 to 20% of the Irish population, a mere 1.4 million starve to death.

C: That’s a lot of people.

A: Now, I read a fabulous paper called ‘Eating people is wrong: Famine’s darkest secret?’ question mark.

C: I would disagree heavily with that title. But okay.

A: And this was surprisingly about cannibalism and famines. And I’m going to trust the conclusions of the author, that there was no evidence of cannibalism during this particular famine, mostly because he’s an Irish scholar with more sources than I do.

C: Yup, let’s follow on that one, then.

A: But this does not mean, there is not other evidence that cannibalism was on people’s minds. Through the 18th century, we have another famine. There’d been a famine in 1728 to 1730 and in 1729, an anonymous writer published a pamphlet, and this pamphlet draws attention to the plight of the poor Irish, and made somewhat of a modest proposal, which could help abate people suffering.

C: I think I may have heard of this modest proposal.

A (clears throat) : “A young healthy child well nursed, is, at a year old, a most delicious nourishing and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricasee, or a ragoust. A child will make two dishes at an entertainment for friends, and when the family dines alone, the fore or hind quarter will make a reasonable dish, and seasoned with a little pepper or salt, will be very good boiled on the fourth day, especially in winter. Infant’s flesh will be in season throughout the year, but more plentiful in March, and a little before and after; I can think of no one objection, that will possibly be raised against this proposal, unless it should be urged, that the number of people will be thereby much lessened in the kingdom.”

C: It’s like the Nigella Lawson of cannibalism writing,

A: Mee-cro-wah-vay.

(Carmella laughs)

A: Now allegedly, this was set in the spirit of satire to try and shock people into acknowledging the plight of the starving Irish. But it doesn’t make cannibalism in the case of famine, any less true.

C: It also sounds very much like something that one of us would just say.

(Alix snorts)

A: I’m not sure we can be compared to Jonathan Swift.

(Carmella laughs)

C: You know, I’m just very modest.

(Alix laughs)

A: Get out. Anyway, okay. Where was I? Ireland, we’re speeding our way through the 18th century into the 19th. And hello, it’s the Act of Union in 1801.

C: Hello, Act of Union.

A: This in theory means that the people of Ireland are on a par with the English, Welsh and Scottish.

C: In theory…

A: We’re all one big happy country. I mean, we’re not one big happy country now. So why we thought that was going to work in 1801…

C: Was it a case of thinking it would work or of hoping that if you say it was the case, people would just have to go along with it?

A: I think the latter. Despite everything however, the Catholic rural population is growing. Even as Anglo-Irish landlords start the process of land enclosure, limiting land holding of the majority. The Protestant ascendancy own 95% of all Irish land.

C: Wow.

A: And also say hello to some economic agricultural history, we are going to shift our way from meat production, to growing grain for export for Anglo Irish, and plain Anglo profit.

C: Classic.

A: Ireland is known as the breadbasket of Britain for how much food to exports to the mainland each year. But amid all of this export, there is a slight problem-

C: Is that there’s no food left in Ireland.

A: Yes. People need to feed themselves. This is where it gets a little bit. This is where it gets complicated! It’s been complicated since 1066. Most people, clearly, don’t own their own land, with 75% of land being owned by the ascendancy. According to according to “the Reports from the Poor Law Inspectors on the Wages of Agricultural Labourers in Dublin 1870”

C: Sounds like a thrilling read.

A: My research is always…

(Laughs)

C: It is always!

A: Continuous, never ending. Quote, “Previous to the famine, the labourer enjoyed his cabin … with a rood, or half-acre or acre of land, and facilities for … a crop” Because tenant farmers working for landowners often weren’t paid in currency. They worked in exchange for being allowed to farm a poor area of farmland for themselves. A minimal space and there’s only really one crop that can sustain a whole family.

C: Potatoes?

A: The potato. Carmela looked like she was not confident that the main crop of this episode was the potato.

(Laughs)

C: I thought it was a trick question.

A: No, it’s the potato. We have reached the potato of the famine. Just so we can get it out of our system before we get going. After that speed run of Irish history. Carmella, what’s the name of the Blight that caused the Irish potato famine?

C: The English.

A: Okay, we’ve got that out of our system. We all knew it was coming. I in fact, had that written into the script even before I started researching because I knew we were going to make that joke.

(Carmella laughs)

A: I mean, you know wrong. This is a prime episode for slagging off the English-

C: Ourselves.

A: Yeah, it was like it’s a valid pastime. Bit masochistic, but deserved. Let us start with the Blight itself. It’s not just the English, but it’s a common pathogen called Phytophthora infestans HERB-1.

C: Hmm Easy to say, memorable, catchy.

A: Don’t ask me what it means. It is apparently an oomycete. Ooh-might-see? I don’t know. But if you’d like to get your hands on some, a specimen is still kept at Kew Gardens.

C: Oh, just in case?

A: It seems like the recipe for disaster to me.

C: It’s breached containment! Argh.

A: The Blight travels across the Atlantic from where it originates in South America. And in the summer of 1845 it hits Europe. Irish farmers notice dark splotches on the leaves of their potato plants. And when the potatoes were pulled from the ground, they were quote, “shrunken mushy and inedible.”

C: Hmm.

A: My cooking. In the first year 1845. Harvest yields were cut in half. By 1846 that was down to a quarter. Blight has a smell. People could sense the rotting under their feet.

C: Ugh.

A: A third of the crop was completely destroyed. And I know I keep harking back to season two episode three. But if we remember Alix’s fun discussion about crop yields.

C: Yes, I remember it so well.

A: You frequently replay it to yourself. Farmers know exactly how much of a crop they can afford to lose, some to sell some to eat some to replant and a buffer for failed crops. So, this diminishing return is already spelling out disaster for the people of Ireland. Or do I mean the Irish of Ireland?

C: Yes.

A: Because the Anglo Irish and in some cases the out English landlords and landowners are still keen to turn a profit. It’s not really a hands-on job being a landlord, you can get your middlemen to collect the rent, get someone else to deal with the labourers be an the absentee landlord and have money sent out to you.

C: Yeah, if there’s 30% of the crop last, just sell all of that. Who needs to eat right? Is that what they’re thinking?

A: Today’s episode is sponsored by absentee landlordism.

(Laughs)

A: Question. You’re at the beginning of a famine. You’re a farmer.

C: Okay.

A: You have minimal crop returns.

C: Hmmhmm.

A: What are you going to do with them? eat them, plant them or sell them. You can only do one.

C: The most sensible thing to do would be to plant them.

A: In the middle of a blight?

C: Hmm, true.

A: This one is a trick question. It’s lose/lose.

C: Yeah. If you sell them, you’ll have some money, but there might not be crops to purchase. If you eat them, they’re gone. If you plant them, they might get blighted. Hmm. I think, I think I’m probably going to eat my family is that an option?

(Laughs)

A: Said so casually. It’s worth noting that it’s not just in Ireland that this is happening. The potato crop across Europe is being affected. Belgium, Prussia, Netherlands and France are all being hit by the potato blight. But no other population in Europe is as dependent on the potato as the Irish. Now, I know it’s sort of a joke at this point 200 and so years on, but it really is a matter of life and death. And oh, boy, are we coming to the death.

A: In the name of balance? I went on the UK government’s website to-

C: Oh, ho, ho do please tell me what they had to say.

A: They have a history section. And, quote, “a high proportion of Irish MPs were landowners, all their sons. Parliament was fully aware of the situation.” Yes, you would, one would hope so considering the lives of people in the British Empire…

C: Does aware of mean the same thing is affected by, caring about, doing something about?

A: To begin with? Sort of.

C: Okay.

A: There was an attempt. The Tories, I know.

C: Those guys.

A: Yeah, those guys try and bring in food from overseas and Public Works and relief efforts are set up. Robert Peel tries to sneak things in around the advocates for the free market.

C: Oh!

A: Yeah. There is an attempt. I mean, this is done in the belief that the famine will be over quickly, and it won’t cost a lot of money.

C: Oh, I’ve seen that kind of optimism from the UK government before.

A: Oh, just wait. Just you wait. The problem isn’t necessarily that there’s no food in Ireland, it’s that it’s too expensive for the poor to afford those who rely on the potato as their main crop. Technically, various grains can still be exported, because (posh English voice) well there’s a free market.

A: Now, this hasn’t always happened in other famines, even other famines in Ireland, the Year of Slaughter, for example, ports were closed, keeping Irish grown food inside the country. This leads to a drop in food prices and helps abate starvation.

C: Yeah, yeah, it makes sense.

A: Yeah, not this time. Let’s talk about the Corn Laws.

C: Oh, you know what? Corn Laws is one of those things where I’ve heard the word many times in my life and often thought to myself, I must find out precisely what that means, and never have. So Alix, please educate me on the details of the corn laws.

A: I literally have just a note in my script here being like, I’m sorry, I’m so boring.

(Carmella laughs)

A: But corn laws restrict the amount of foreign grain that can be imported into a country. The idea is to make sure that homegrown food is readily available and not undercut by cheaper imported grain.

C: That makes sense.

A: This can artificially keep the price of bread and other grain grids high. That isn’t really helping the poorest in society.

C: Yeah, okay. I get you.

A: Especially during a famine.

C: So, to recap, the limit on the amount of grain you can import has remained in place despite there being a famine.

A: Robert Peel wants to repeal these laws. Repeal. (Carmella: Yeah.) Peel. Repeal. (Carmella: Yeah) That’s really funny. But this idea, err, pisses people off.

C: Which people?

A (posh voice): The economy people!

C: Those ones, I thought it might not be pissing off the people who were like starving to death.

A: No, they have quite different fiscal aims than say the Treasury.

C: Yeah.

A: Robert Peel’s efforts to repeal the Corn Laws – and he had really been trying. He bought £100,000 worth of sweet corn-

C (like a child being forced to eat vegetables): I hate sweet corn.

A: If you are starving to death you will eat sweet corn.

C: Hmm.

A: It goes potato, human flesh, sweetcorn in Carmella’s triangle of food needs.

C: Yeah.

A: He brings in a sweetcorn ration. He has these relief committees set up to distribute it in Ireland, and has public work projects set up. Now these projects I mentioned earlier, they’re not great. You have to do hard labour in order to qualify to be paid mid-famine.

C: Hmm.

A: And you’re then paying for imported corn. But it’s better than not doing anything.

C: Yeah, it’s a low bar, but you’ve got to be able to step over it.

A: And when he tries to have these Corn Laws repealed, err he gets ousted. He’s gone.

C: You don’t want to mess with the economy.

A: I will say this for Peel. I feel like I’m on a really strong Robert Peel vibe here. I’m not because oh my god, wait for the politicians that follow then you’ll understand.

C: Ah, I see best of a bad bunch.

A: Yeah. On record no one dies due to famine in the winter of 1845.

C: And that’s when Peel’s doing stuff?

A: That’s when Peel’s doing stuff. Goes to show even conditional relief efforts save lives. Who knew?

C: Well done Peel.

A: So this isn’t to last. Peel’s gone. New government’s in and the new government are believers in the laissez-faire economic model.

C: Oh, that one.

A: Who gives a shit it will just sort itself out eventually won’t it.

(Carmella laughs)

A: Famines don’t last more than a year, oh whatever. 1846 the first year of sustained famine, people have already sold all that can be sold, scavenged what can be scavenged and stolen the remains. There are deaths on a significant scale by that winter. All of the big hitters when it comes to famine disease, they’re out to play. We’ve got typhoid, we’ve got fever. And these deaths are still marking the landscape of Ireland. There are mass unmarked graves for the tens of thousands who died during this time. But don’t worry, I can see you look concerned Carmella.

C: I’m sure it’s all going to get better now.

A: Alix, I hear you cry. What about the English economy?

C: What about the English economy? I’m so glad you’ve asked.

A: We’re so worried about the English economy. Even though English officials by this time in 1846 are saying the Ireland in trouble. But don’t worry, Sir Randolph Routh, and then I’m going to do an obnoxious awful accent for him. Don’t worry.

C: I’m sure he deserves it.

A: He is the Chair of the Relief Commission. He sees this whole famine thing as an opportunity.

C: Hmm, career development.

A: Worse than that. (Obnoxious awful English accent) “The little industry called for to rear the potato, and its prolific growth, lead the people to indolence and all kinds of vice, which habitual labour and a higher order of food would prevent. I think it very probable that we may derive much advantage from this present calamity.”

C: Ah, so potatoes made Irish people lazy. And if they all die of the famine, they won’t be lazy anymore.

A: I think they’d be significantly lazier. Because they’d be dead.

C: Yeah. Wow. That’s some. It certainly is a take that he’s got there.

A: So, he’s in charge of the relief commission. I’m sure you won’t be surprised to hear that relief efforts are halted.

(Carmella laughs)

C: Well, you know, you’ve got to make them motivate themselves.

A: Parliament legislate to put the responsibility for Famine Relief on to Irish landowners.

C: Ah.

A: Because why should the English pay for it? Let’s ignore the Act of Union and we’re all one big happy country now.

C: And the fact that the English have been making the most money off of the Irish for this time.

A: I don’t know what you possibly mean. So those Irish landowners, Anglo Irish and Irish, are in turn trying to save money by evicting their tenants. Tenants who, for the most part, aren’t getting paid, but have land rights and the ability to sustain themselves from their own harvest.

C: Hmm.

A: Or rather had. But don’t worry, grain is still being exported out of the country for profit.

C: Oh, you’ve got to have these constant check ins on how the English economy is doing? Because I’m just so concerned.

A: Now this is a bit of a sore point, because as we covered earlier, it isn’t necessarily just the absence of food that’s causing the issue, but the inability to access it.

C: Yes.

A: There are arguments about the ethics and logistics of export and protecting the economy and the cost of human lives. Now, doesn’t that sound familiar from the British government?

C: Oh, yeah.

A: If there’s no financial incentive to produce them, why would farmers keep farming? Technically more food is imported into Ireland between 1845 and 46, then is exported. But food coming in isn’t necessarily being used to feed the hungry. It’s being used to feed livestock for export. And ironically, some food had to be exported, to pay the rates levied to support those affected by the famine, following the act of Parliament.

C: Love that, love that. You know, sometimes when people explain to me all of various import and export and border laws, it’s like, how did we break the world so much? This is, this is all made up, right? The economy is not real guys.

A: I know. It’s madness. Following 1847 all Famine Relief has to be paid for for taxes raised in Ireland, the Irish economy has to somehow keep going to levy the funds to pay for its own relief.

C: It’s all made up. Astrology for men.

A: Astrology for men. Sir Charles Trevelyan, Assistant Secretary to the Treasury actually cuts the pay for those who are in the Public Works programmes.

C: Great.

A: And those programmes actually close in 1847 as well. He calls the famine. Are you ready for this?

C: Oh boy. What does he call the famine Alix?

A: “The judgement of God to teach the Irish a lesson”

(A faint boom of thunder picked up by the microphone.)

C: Is that, thunder?

A: I think that was thunder. That was impressively timed!

(Carmella laughs)

C: Is the lesson that the English are bad?

A: Yeah, yeah, that’s pretty much the essence of what God has taught the Irish. Poor Laws are altered to ensure that only the most destitute can receive any aid at all. There’s a vote in parliament that in order to qualify for Famine Relief, you have to forfeit your land.

C: Hum. That really seems like there’s an ulterior motive going on there.

A: This leads to starving farmers giving over the land, which is their wages, back to their landlords before they receive any assistance. People are being evicted for profit being evicted to pay their own famine relief. Now, hashtag not all landlords.

(Carmella cackles)

A: There are some people who don’t evict their tenants and don’t burn down their houses and do forgive rents.

C: Oh, wow. Every, you know-

A: Heroes!

C: Heroes, exactly.

A: They’re not exactly in the majority. Up to half a million people are evicted. Guess who’s getting richer and who was getting poorer?

C: Hmm. I’m gonna say the Anglo-Irish landlords are getting richer. And the Irish workers are getting poorer.

A: Yes. 10 points to Carmella.

C: Thank you. It was a difficult question. But I got there in the end.

A: Strangely enough, by 1847 The English are getting a bit concerned that Irish nationalism might, you know, rise up people might start taking offence or what’s going on in their country. There might be another of those violent rebellions. So here come the military.

C: Oh, great, great let’s wheel those guys in, love them.

A: But before things get worse, I would like to point out just as we’ve seen in some other cases, some people are good.

C: A bold statement from Alix here at Casting Lots.

(Alix laughs)

A: There are charitable endeavours, Catholic priests, Protestant charity workers and Quakers all start up private relief efforts. Okay, there are some instances of convert to my religion or starve to death.

C: Classic =.

A: Religion is still a bit of a sore subject in Ireland. understatement, I think.

(Carmella laughs)

A: But for the most part, these charitable efforts are altruistic. There are donations from around the world. The Irish diaspora in America send over a million dollars’ worth of food, the Choctaw and Cherokee Nation’s, despite their own poverty, donate $800. There’s quite a famous memorial to this in Ireland in Cork, the Queen Victoria appeal raises £100,700, the Tsar of Russia, the Sultan of Turkey all donate money to the Irish cause. The pope calls on Catholics around the world to help the Irish, the French people donate £50,000.

C: Great that everyone else is doing the charity work that England should probably just be trying to do.

A: None of this is enough. There is however, a brief moment in 1847 where it looks like look, not that things will be okay but that things might not be getting worse.

C: Like we’re plateauing.

A: Exactly, you know, if we can just keep going, maybe things won’t continue to go downhill.

C: Hmmhmm.

A: Even though Mr “God’s teaching the Irish a lesson” Trevelyan closes down the public works scheme, there are soup kitchens that are opened up in the spring of ‘47. These relatively cheaply feed 3 million people a day.

C: That’s pretty successful.

A: These are paid for via loans. That Ireland is expected to pay back.

C: Oh, yeah. Yeah, there we go. That sounds more like it.

C: But that year, blight doesn’t return to the harvest. So, it’s a bad harvest after two years of famine, there’s not enough yield, people are starving and weaken and poor, thousands have been evicted from their homes. But that is a harvest.

C: Hmmhmm.

A: With a bit of support. Perhaps things could get back to some sort of normality.

C: Now because I know what podcasts this is, I’m going to assume that’s not the way things go down.

A: Things could get better, or the famine could be declared officially over by the summer of 1847. All relief measures are cancelled. Go fend for yourselves.

C: I think the second one is what happened.

(Wry laugher)

A: Welcome to Black 47.

C: Catchy

A: The Irish are quite good at coming up with names for these things. I still quite like the Year of Slaughter.

C: Yeah.

A: Thousands of people are evicted, whole villages and settlements just disappear. People beg to enter workhouses. People are dying quote “with hunger.” And then the blight returns and returns.

C: That must just be like a real blow. I can’t even imagine how horrible that must feel. To be serious for a moment.

(Wry laugher)

A: The food crisis only ends in Ireland in 1852. And the ramifications of the Great Hunger are still felt today.

C: Hmm.

A: One in eight people on the island of Ireland die during the famine. And we’ve only just gotten started. But Alix, you’ve been talking for hours and haven’t even got to the cannibalism yet.

C: 50 minutes actually.

A: Oh, well. I’ll keep going then.

(Carmella laughs)

A: And in part, that’s deliberate, because we might have talked about it before in terms of disasters, but there’s something called ‘famine fatigue’, and it denotes the end of interest and compassion in a continuous disaster, because these donations and charity support to support the struggling Irish in 1846 and 47, start to dry up by ‘48 and ‘49. And I’m bringing that fatigue here. Because it’s during the ‘famine fatigue’ the ‘isn’t this over yet mentality’ that some of the worst events take place.

Now, there is a reason this episode is in season three. And I’m sure we’re going to come across this more and more as we delve into the less cited sources of survival cannibalism, but to be honest, our sources are getting paltry and thinner.

And yes, I am ashamed of the fact I wrote that sentence without thinking so I included in the script so I could call myself out self awareness, that was inappropriate.

(Carmella laughs)

A: The vast majority of our sources for survival cannibalism during the Irish potato famine are anecdotal. And it’s worth remembering that the vast majority of the most devastated populations were illiterate. First-hand testimony from survivors would have been in Gaelic as opposed to in English. We are predominantly reliant on the words of the clergy and those acting for charitable reasons to record stories of survival cannibalism, which they encountered. These people will have their own reasons for including or not including what they’ve seen.

A: While we may consider survival cannibalism, almost conventional in the nineteenth century

C: We have a skewed world view.

A: I do worry about us sometimes. It is worth noting that for the English survival cannibalism is predominately something that is associated with unprecedented disaster at sea or even worse… the French.

(Carmella cackles)

A: Am I wrong?

C: You speak true.

A: It’s not something that should be happening in the British Empire to British citizens under the direct control of Parliament. And yet, there are sources which indicate that survival cannibalism was one of the methods used by the starving and destitute Irish to try and save themselves.

I know it’s a bit ‘The Purge’ but people don’t necessarily behave brilliantly in life-or-death situations.

C: Fair enough.

A: Radical statement to make. I know. There were over 20,000 reported crimes in Ireland in 1848 alone.

C: I mean you sort of have to do what you have to do to get by, right? At that point.

A: Violence, desertion, murder. And, when people are starving, as we know, people are reduced to eating the sustenance that barely registers as food – we have examples of people eating bark and grass and – those two were really neutral and the final one in my list is horrific, and putrefying emaciated farm animals…. It’s quite a shopping list.

C: Hmm.

A: Dr Breandan Mac Suibhne, author of The End of Outrage, says, “to eat food that is sub-human is an index of how you have yourself been reduced, but the ultimate is that you end up eating another human being.”

C: I mean, I get where he’s coming from but seems a bit… judgemental. I dunno, like that’s the most degrading and inhuman thing you can ever do really-

A: I didn’t that it that way. (C: Okay) I took it is as the concept of ‘subhuman food’ as is the bark and the grass (C: Yeah) and it shows, that showing how you’ve been reduced in terms of your personhood.

C: Yeah.

A: I mean we don’t advocate cannibalism for the sake of it.

C: Yeah.

A: Like, something has had to go very badly wrong for you and your situation.

A: There are recorded instances of survival cannibalism in counties Cork, Kerry, Galway and Mayo in Ireland from 1847 onwards. Granted these are rare, but they are also, crucially for us, witnessed and attested to.

C: Hmm. Ha! Crucially for your scripts Alix!

(Laughs)

A: What can I say, I like facts?

(Laughs)

A: Father Peter Ward, a parish priest in County Mayo – wrote to his archbishop of a scene he’d come across in Drimcaggy: “In the village of Drimcaggy four were dead together in a poor hut- brother, two sisters, and daughter. The flesh was torn off the daughter’s arm and mangled in the mouth of her poor dead mother”

“William Walsh, of Mount Partree, and his son were found dead together, their flesh was torn off their dead bodies […] flesh was found in their mouths. His wife and child died the week before of hunger.”

This is what happens during famine. We know this. We know this now, and it was known then. It was known in Ireland, and it was known in Westminster.

C: Yes. But did Westminster do anything about that?

A: We already know the answer to that and it’s ‘go and deal with it yourselves God’s made his judgement.’

C: That’s interesting though that both of those scenes describe bodies being found dead with flesh in their mouth, that’s very odd. Do you think that’s been written for effect and isn’t to be taken literally or is that literal? It seems like surely the point that you’d die of starvation would be after flesh had run out, not when it was literally in your mouth.

A: But if you’re so weak that you’re unable to-

C: Swallow it and digest it?

A: Yeah.

C: Yeah.

A: Cause there comes a point where-

C: Yeah, you can’t recover. Maybe.

A: In May 1849 Reverend James Anderson wrote to the prime minister Lord John Russell, telling of a starving man who had eaten the heart and liver from a ship-wrecked corpse quote, “and that was the maddening feast on which he regaled himself and his family”. This open letter was reported in the press and was even raised in the House of Commons by the MP for Kerry.

C: I mean I understand that it sounds quite gruesome but I mean it like, he’s already dead and you don’t even know him. I think on the tiers of survival cannibalism that one’s less horrible than the ones where you eat your own children.

A: True. But I am going to erm, reference back to that conversation we had, I think off recording, that we have a slightly warped scale.

C: Yep. That’s true, yes, sorry, you’re right. That’s also unpleasant.

A: Things don’t change in Ireland. In fact, Queen Victoria goes to Ireland in 1849 because “everything’s fine now”.

C: Oh I bet everyone really appreciated her visiting.

A: Charles Trevelyan gets a knighthood.

C: Aw, well, I mean he was so correct in all of his opinions.

A: Well, it’s a job well done isn’t it?

C: Famine’s over.

A: You can try and fix the problem, or you can stick your fingers in your ears and pretend that the problem has already resolved itself. Naming no British governments-

(Carmella laughs)

A: But it certainly seems like this is a popular strategy that has remerged in the 21st Century. Now, this is going to be a bit of a curve ball for you, but to quote Karl Marx-

C: Okay, never gonna say no to this.

A: “The Irish famine of 1846 killed more than 1,000,000 people but it killed poor devils only. To the wealth of the country it did not the slightest damage.”

C: Is that true? I feel like it probably impacted their economy?

A: Yeah it was exaggerated a bit for effect. I think Karl Marx did have perhaps an angle that he was going for?

C: He has, yeah, skin in that game.

A: But, over a million people die that is true. The population of nearly every town is halved. Another near two million people emigrate. There is the destruction of a whole culture, community, and people. Some argue that the famine was technically genocide, but as a legal construct the fact that the famine (and its lack of management) targeted entire social group targeted because of their class as opposed to their ethnicity or religion it doesn’t meet the modern criteria for what constitutes a genocide. But Professor Brendan O’Leary of the University of Pennsylvania puts forward that the management of the Irish Famine may not be genocide but it is “geno-slaughter”.

C: Yes it sounds like there’s a lot of ‘on a technicalities’ in there and when you’re talking about mass killing on that scale is quibbling over technicalities really the way to go?

A: It’s hard to deny that the British government saw this natural famine as somewhat of a good thing in cases.

C: I mean they literally stated that so.

A: Yeah, yeah. You can try and deny it but I’ve got it written down.

(Carmella laughs)

A: Heard it on a podcast, come on guys! Now we’d be here for the rest of time if I tried to continue Irish history up to the modern day.

C: And into the future!

A: And into the future, the recording never stops.

(Carmella laughs)

C: Just real time.

A: But the impact of the famine can still be seen throughout modern Irish history especially within the nineteenth and twentieth century rise of Irish nationalism, and development of the Gaelic revival in Irish culture. Prominent Irish republicans had been children of the famine with memories of their families’ evictions and the famine is a galvanising concept for a free Ireland. What have the British ever done for us anyway?

C: Good question.

A: It’s a good question for us as well.

A: With this whistlestop tour of Irish history you can see how the famine can be perceived as the final straw, that everything has been building up to something. And it’s only 70 years after the famine that the Anglo-Irish treaty is signed, and the Republic of Ireland comes into existence. I mean that’s not the end of the troubles in Ireland-

C: Oh no!

A: But we are not the podcast to delve further into that. I’ll end with this, we are only six generations away from those who suffered and died in Ireland today.

[Outro Music – Daniel Wackett]

C: Thank you for listening to Episode 2 on the Irish Potato Famine, or the Great Hunger. We like to keep things cheerful here.

A: Join us next time, where we’re putting Carmella’s Spanish pronunciation to the test.

[Outro music continues]

A: Casting Lots Podcast can be found on Twitter, Instagram and Tumblr as @CastingLotsPod, and on Facebook as Casting Lots Podcast.

C: If you enjoyed this episode and want to hear more, don’t forget to subscribe to us on iTunes, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, and please rate, review and share to bring more people to the table.

A: Casting Lots: A Survival Cannibalism Podcast, is researched, written and recorded by Alix and Carmella, with post-production and editing also by Carmella and Alix. Art and logo design by Riley – @Tallestfriend on Twitter and Instagram – with audio and music by Daniel Wackett – Daniel Wackett on SoundCloud and @ds_wack on Twitter. Casting Lots is part of the Morbid Audio Podcast Network – search #MorbidAudio on Twitter – and the network’s music is provided by Mikaela Moody – mikaelamoody1 on Bandcamp.

[Morbid Audio Sting – Mikaela Moody]

A: Do you wanna make a joke about potatoes?

C: No! I do not!

(Alix cackles)

C: Note the absence of Irish accents in this episode!

(Carmella laughs)

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